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What about the old Nacra 18 squared? 11' beam??
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Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: bvining] #239732
11/03/11 08:11 PM
11/03/11 08:11 PM
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WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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Our older ARC 22 (12' beam) has a three piece tramp with two sets of lacing, 1' inboard of, and parallel to the inner gunnels. Great for your heel, the hiking straps are right there as well.
I like it. We also have hiking straps 1' either side of centerline on the forward half of the tramp, so that crew can be secure forward and inboard in lighter air.

Dave

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Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #239739
11/04/11 06:00 AM
11/04/11 06:00 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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So the A cat lace up's are more for tightness than weight or wind resistance, and a fishnet type will hurt my knees and catch my trap hook, so stick with the standard Prindle set up and just keep replacing the tabs when they pull out...?

OK.

I guess if there were a better way, someone would have already figured it out!


Blade F16
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Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #239795
11/07/11 08:28 AM
11/07/11 08:28 AM
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Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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To see how much air flows out the side laces attach some tell tales to the lacing and go sailing. I think you'll find pretty good flow.

Imagine what happens when a wave comes close to the rear beam at speed. There's a cushion of air that gets trapped under the tramp. It is drag. Vent that air and go faster.


Have Fun
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #239803
11/07/11 11:21 AM
11/07/11 11:21 AM
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
and a fishnet type will hurt my knees


You in fishnets is a very disturbing visual. And I doubt it's the fishnets that are hurting your knees.

Man, you walked right in to that....


Jay

Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #239885
11/09/11 09:45 AM
11/09/11 09:45 AM
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Houston
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I used to think, there must be a better tramp material, until I built a couple.

The best tramp material, for performance, I have seen is knitted polyester and looks like lace (see Sailrite, tramp material). It has big holes, it's light, and soft on the knees. The untreated version is good for 1 maybe 2 years, in the sun. The UV resistant version is good for 4-5 years, best guess. When this stuff fails, it fails fast. You go from, "I really should do something about this" to falling through into the water in a couple of weeks. I was lucky, mine failed while working on my boat. Friends tell me, it really sucks to sail home with no tramp.

The very best woven polypropylene tramp material works almost as well, is a little heavier, a little cheaper, and lasts 15-20 years in the sun. You can expect to re-stitch a tramp 1-3 times before the material breaks down.

Polypropylene net, you have already discussed.

Now, if you to try something new, once I saw a H16 whose tramp had been replaced with aluminum grating. The workmanship on that boat was way way below sh*ty but it had some advantages. If you could just solve the problem of it being a giant cheese grater, you are going to slide across.

Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: carlbohannon] #239897
11/09/11 11:08 AM
11/09/11 11:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
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cuben fiber. cause the chicks will think it's sexy. I've been told on numerous occasions this is the only reason that matters.


Jay

Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240072
11/14/11 04:03 AM
11/14/11 04:03 AM
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northsea junkie Offline
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With regard to open nets as tramps I like to add my experience with this because I use an open net already for three year.

Never a "normal" tramp again for me; I like it and I love it. For me it is the right solution for coping better with incoming break and waves.

See for that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9dcmhmlk4E&feature=channel

But you need to use the right open net!

No knotted fishing nets etc. They hurt on your knees.

I ordered mine with Sunrise Yacht Products (multihullnets.com) and they custom made for me from polyester rope with holes of 1-1/2", treated for UV and finished with a rope border which I could lace very easy (lacing gap 2-1/2") to the hulls and the beams.

Don't forget the net is WOVEN, not knotted.

In the trapeze you don't bother for the water which strikes through the net. I would say it enhances your feeling with the sea and your sailing!

Last edited by northsea junkie; 11/14/11 04:05 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240076
11/14/11 07:53 AM
11/14/11 07:53 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Thanks for that, it is exactly what I was thinking about. I see by the video you have tied the front around the front beam, but I couldn't see how it is attached at the rear beam. Did you have a bolt rope there to slide into the rear beam, like most standard tramps? And on the side lacing, did you add anything special there or just lace it to the netting all the way up?

Also, what type of cat is that? It sort of looks like my Prindle 18 but the beam mounts at the front is different.


Blade F16
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Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240077
11/14/11 08:24 AM
11/14/11 08:24 AM
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The front and rear beam are tied around with a through going line on the border of the net, just as you see on the front.

In the four corners of the tramp-surface there are RVS-eyes mounted on the beams which are the four basic strong attachments for the whole net. So the lacing only puts the net flat and gives the necessary tension for each hole of the net.

When mounted correctly, there is no difference in the tension and the awareness of "sacking" compared with a normal tramp.

The cat itself is completly designed and homemade by myself. The reason that you see a resemblance with your P18 is that the hulls are also asymmetric shaped just like all the prindles. To be honest I looked a lot to the prindle design; though I changed the volume-distribution.

With regard to the beams: for me it was the simplest and least weight costing method of fixing them permanently on the hulls.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240078
11/14/11 09:05 AM
11/14/11 09:05 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Nice job on the boat build!

Now, at the rear beam, I guess you must have a raised traveler or some other way to lace the tramp to it? I couldn't wrap line around the rear beam as the traveler is built into it and it would restrict the movement of the car.

BUT...I could have a bolt rope on that end and just slide it into the beam as the normal tramps do, and tension it at the front with the wrap-around line like you have.


Blade F16
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Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240082
11/14/11 09:39 AM
11/14/11 09:39 AM
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You are quite right. I was too lazy to get out in the cold yarden and see how I did it exactly on my rear beam. Infact I drilled little holes on the utmost innerside of my rear beam. (which I also made by myself of a wooden core covered with a very strong carbon-epoxy laminate).

I remember that Sunrise offered your solution also as a possibility.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240085
11/14/11 01:05 PM
11/14/11 01:05 PM
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Nice, do you notice any difference, good or bad, going upwind, in respect to wind (not) getting under the tramp, lifting the hull, etc. Does the boat stay down more with the netting than other boats you may have sailed with a traditional tramp? Also, about the waves, looks like a pretty wet ride for anything on the tramp, as the waves are going to come straight up through, but down here in Florida the water is usually pretty warm so that's not a problem...but do you think it is "slower" or "faster", in regard to drag, from both wind and waves?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240091
11/14/11 01:53 PM
11/14/11 01:53 PM

M
MN3
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M



Timbo, just wear your snorkel and you should be fine! smile
kiddin' but real curious to see what you end up doing

Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240100
11/14/11 03:07 PM
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I've sailed many many years with different cats with normal oldfashioned tramps. Yes there are differences. Indeed there is the impression that my cat stays down a lot more, especially in waves. There are no hits again to tramp.

In passing breaking waves it is an essential difference, as you might see on the video.

But for me the most impressive difference is the fact the water is no more something down under the tramp, but is more active and lively felt where ever you are on the cat.
That may seem a bit vague, but it feels more like sailing a windsurfboard.

With regard to speed I cannot remember any difference.

One last detail: when uprighting after capsizing, you cannot wait anymore untill the windforce in the tramp turns you in the wind! So you have to swim to the top of the mast, lift it, and turn the cat in (and a little past)the wind. Go back quickly via the shroud and lift the cat.

Before I forget: you can very easy hook all kind of things to the net (bags, blocks for jibsheeting,etc).

One last warning: look out for getting stuck with your trapezehook in the net when laying down on your belly on the net. It happened to me once when I was climbing on board from deep water and I got stuck just when I was lifting myself in one movement on board. So I ended up fighting half hanging with my legs still overboard. Since that day, I always sail with a legknive.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240104
11/14/11 03:22 PM
11/14/11 03:22 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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Thanks for the info. I might try something like that on my Prindle in I can get Sunrise to build one for...no too much more than the standard Prindle 18 tramp. My boat lives on my small lake and never goes to the ocean, so not too worried about really big waves, but good tip on the righting! I forgot about the wind helping push the boat via the tramp, around to the right direction.


Blade F16
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Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240107
11/14/11 04:01 PM
11/14/11 04:01 PM
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Three years ago I paid US$ 330,- for a net (to fit 85"x64" opening) with Sunrise Yacht Products.


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: northsea junkie] #240139
11/15/11 05:00 PM
11/15/11 05:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,197
Vancouver, BC
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Haven't seen anyone mention lossing lines through mesh tramps...that would be a big issue for racers. The Tornado class limits lacing gap size from the inner gunwale to the tramp edge...some teams were pushng this dimension out pretty far to reduce wind force under the tramp. My tornado used to have a lacing gap along the rear beam...so that lacing points were on the forward surface of the beam to lift the tramp a bit higher off the water. But the lacing gap meant losing mainsheet/spin-sheet through the gap. I switched tramp to wrap under rear beam and lace to the rear side. I feel it reduces force of wave impacts on the rear beam a bit.





Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240150
11/15/11 11:25 PM
11/15/11 11:25 PM
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Yeah, losing the sheets overboard is a big deal for me too. And when it's windy/wavy enough to lose them, those are the conditions when you need them to run freely as a safety valve. And I feel like I have to throttle back until they've been retreived. I'm amazed at how well they can find the holes in the lacing, so it's hard for me to imagine how they stay on an open net.

Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240153
11/16/11 03:02 AM
11/16/11 03:02 AM
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With regard to sheets creeping through the holes of an open net tramp, I have to say that in my experience this does not happen.

That is to say, assuming holes of 1-1/2 inch and ofcourse assuming through-going ("endless") sheets.
I have to add that I'm used to assemble all the spare of the mainsheet in my steering hand (I've big hands)on the tiller, while the other end of the sheet is in my other (sailing)hand.

The jibsheet I made so short that it will stay always onboard.

But I agree that it all depends on the habit of collecting the spare of the sheetrope in your hands. This habbit also make sense because it enables you to use the mainsheet traveller more often. So the lines to both cleats are tight and ready to be sheeted in or out.

There are by the way tricks for collecting and holding this sheet rest more easily in your steering hand.


Last edited by northsea junkie; 11/16/11 03:14 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Lace up your Tramps? [Re: Timbo] #240161
11/16/11 08:40 AM
11/16/11 08:40 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline OP
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I think they were talking more about sheets falling through the much larger gaps between the traditional tramps and hulls or beams(6"?) like the side lacing setups we see now on the A cats.

A cats only have one sheet and it's usually in their hands all the time, unlike the spinnaker sheets and halyard of spin cats (newer Tornados).

My very old Prindle tramp has a large rip across the rear, just forward of the aft beam, and the mainsheet LOVES to slide out the back and drag in the water when it's blowing!

As I was thinking more about your net setup, I realized it could be rough on my dog's paws if/when I take him out with me... I'm thinking maybe a smaller opening type netting, I'll keep looking.

My Blue Healer Loves the water, and loves sailing. Now I just have to train him to bring me a beer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Ds6Z2QG3k


Blade F16
#777
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