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Rules changes #240873
12/06/11 09:55 AM
12/06/11 09:55 AM
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Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline OP
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So I'm reading at Cat Racing News something about "all spins illegal"... Couldn't quite get the drift of what they're talking about. Can anyone clarify what the World Council decision was about spins?

I think I understand the main and jib issues with SI using illegal cloth for sail reinforcements or something. Doesn't seem like that affects most of us, at least us without SI sails.

Now I also read something about "paint" being illegal now... Whats up with that? I was thinking of using an epoxy paint on the bottoms of my hulls cause its much harder than gel coat and would stand up to abuse/trailering/launching better. But that is sounding like a bad idea now! What is the ruling on paint on boards/rudders?

Just looking for some clarification...

Linky: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/


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-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240894
12/06/11 12:56 PM
12/06/11 12:56 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Sloan, this has to do with the appearance of cross cut sails, made with two sail cloth materials, technically not in compliance with rule G.3.4.b specifying uniformity of legal sail cloth material. (Personally I am not sure why there is such as fuss over uniform cloth, so long as the cloth is legal, but so be it.

The absolute definition of the rule makes all spinnakers similarly illegal. Why? As specified by the strictest definition of the rules, all F18 Spis include reinforcing cloth at the grommets, and therefore, are technically constructed out of two dissimilar sail cloths.

If the clarification of the rule is anything like other recent decisions, the outcome may be more murky after the necessary ruling discussion that will be forthcoming...If they aren't the most clear, at least, our ruling body is amusing!


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240895
12/06/11 12:58 PM
12/06/11 12:58 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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Here is the link to the letter.

Letter to F18 Europeans Jury Chair

Last edited by rexdenton; 12/06/11 12:59 PM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Rules changes [Re: rexdenton] #240919
12/07/11 10:18 AM
12/07/11 10:18 AM
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Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Sensational journalism from my perspective. A different title could have been "F18 Class Updates Rules" and the story could discuss ambiguity that has been identified regarding the reinforcement cloth used for spins as being constructed out of more than one material.......boring! However, that does not get readers' attention.



Kris Hathaway
Re: Rules changes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #240921
12/07/11 11:08 AM
12/07/11 11:08 AM
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Anacortes
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Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Sensational journalism from my perspective. A different title could have been "F18 Class Updates Rules" and the story could discuss ambiguity that has been identified regarding the reinforcement cloth used for spins as being constructed out of more than one material.......boring! However, that does not get readers' attention.



Thats what it looked like to me too. I was more concerned with the "no paint" comment since my boards and rudders are painted and I'm considering painting the hulls as well.

I guess the Cat Racing site is trying to emulate SA... crazy


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Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240928
12/07/11 01:53 PM
12/07/11 01:53 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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The issue is quite serious, the world council has decided to change class rules without understanding the impact of their actions.

They have been advised by well informed sources that their actions would be ill advised and yet they went ahead with the changes regardless.

For example, there are quite a number of boats in the fleet that have been painted and with this new rule they are currently not considered F18's anymore!! The class did not consider the effects of the rule when it comes to refurbishing an older boat, So now you can only spray gelcoat on it... Micht as well spray lead on the thing!

The sail cloth issues are much the same, there was substantial advice from industry professionals that was clearly contrary to the decisions taken, and now we have this whole thing blow up and the class has gotten itself into a real mess.

I really hope it can be rectified ASAP for the good of all F18 class members.


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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #240932
12/07/11 02:33 PM
12/07/11 02:33 PM
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rexdenton Offline
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We could use a bit more clarity and foresight on rules, and a bit more transparency over the process. It seems like 'something happens', no one seems to know what is happening, the better part of a year transpires, then a decision is issued on the rule challenge that lacks the clarity everyone wants.

Simply put: I'd like to see an agenda with topics, forecast discussion, allow a skype dial in (or something when a discussion is open), and then for the ruling body to issue clear mandates on rules changes, and post them in a timely way. That's not too much to ask is it?


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240933
12/07/11 02:51 PM
12/07/11 02:51 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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If you listen to some of the officers in the Class, yes, that is too much to ask.

Things are not particularly copacetic on the Council right now. I'm hoping that we can work through somethings over the next couple of months...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240935
12/07/11 03:39 PM
12/07/11 03:39 PM
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USA1273 Offline
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KARL F - DO NOT open the spray gun or the black paint!!!!

Please return these items ASAP.


Last edited by USA1273; 12/07/11 03:44 PM.

F18 USA 1273
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Re: Rules changes [Re: rexdenton] #240937
12/07/11 04:56 PM
12/07/11 04:56 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by rexdenton
We could use a bit more clarity and foresight on rules, and a bit more transparency over the process. It seems like 'something happens', no one seems to know what is happening, the better part of a year transpires, then a decision is issued on the rule challenge that lacks the clarity everyone wants.

Simply put: I'd like to see an agenda with topics, forecast discussion, allow a skype dial in (or something when a discussion is open), and then for the ruling body to issue clear mandates on rules changes, and post them in a timely way. That's not too much to ask is it?


There is a lot of pressure currently to achieve exactly what you are asking for. More support will help, but it looks like we will have a review of the process and the recent decisions as well.

Remember, no rule is valid in the class until ISAF certifies it and publishes it on the sailing.org website and that realistically wont be until the middle of 2012 at the earliest. So there is plenty of time for sanity to prevail!

If you don't agree with the recent decisions, let your Class representative know so they can pass it on to the WC.

And if you want more info you can PM me.


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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #240939
12/07/11 06:19 PM
12/07/11 06:19 PM
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Anacortes
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Originally Posted by macca

If you don't agree with the recent decisions, let your Class representative know so they can pass it on to the WC.


John and Dave, PLEASE HELP ALLOW ME TO PAINT MY BOAT!


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Re: Rules changes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #240940
12/07/11 07:33 PM
12/07/11 07:33 PM
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Hi Kris

You may be right now, but you need to read the whole post. I did not detailed the wording as the minutes are still not published. So I will wait for them to be online , as I remarked, then I will detail every aspect of it.

If not I'm talking without a reference for readers to confirm/check themselves. I cannot and wont publish the Minutes until published, but it is Important to note that this info was encouraged in the WC to be distributed, and published in a french website even before all NAs had their copy, so you'll get the idea of what is going on... full details without sensational journalism to follow as I clearly stated on those posts.


Cheers,
Martin - CSNews.

Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240944
12/07/11 09:30 PM
12/07/11 09:30 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Sloansailing
John and Dave, PLEASE HELP ALLOW ME TO PAINT MY BOAT!


US F18 Sailors, what are your opinions on this issue?



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Rules changes [Re: David Ingram] #240946
12/08/11 01:56 AM
12/08/11 01:56 AM
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Karl Funk Offline
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Painting should be allowed. Gel coat is expensive and unreliable. Having an epoxy paint will make repairs and upkeep much quicker, easier and cheaper. Not to mention the ability to touch up our boats on site.

Who do I draft a more detailed letter to on this issue?

Talk about a sour taste in my mouth before even sailing the new boat!

Cheers,
Karl
Team Kwjiboat

Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240947
12/08/11 02:00 AM
12/08/11 02:00 AM
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Tony_F18 Offline
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What is the motivation behind this painting rule? Is there an advantage to using it over gelcoat (apart from the weight)?
When will the full minutes be available?

Re: Rules changes [Re: Tony_F18] #240948
12/08/11 05:06 AM
12/08/11 05:06 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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The painting rule could be given the name "the phantom rule" it was specifically designed to stop the Phantom. As some details of the new production Phantom became clear it was detailed that the new boat would be painted in an epoxy paint which gives a very high quality finish and in the matt style it looks unreal too.

A scare campaign went through the WC claiming that painted boats would have a considerable advantage. They declined to back the claims up with anything like facts.... it reminds me of this classic from Will Ferrel global warming

Paint is just a better solution, as mentioned above, its easier to repair, lasts longer and is lighter than gelcoat. There is no speed advantage at all so there is no justifiable reason to ban it.

But the same could be said for the 2 types of cloth in a mainsail rule too, every independent sailmaker in the class agrees that it should be allowed and it increases the life of the sails and makes them cheaper. So again, why would you ban it?


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Re: Rules changes [Re: David Ingram] #240950
12/08/11 07:33 AM
12/08/11 07:33 AM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Sloansailing
John and Dave, PLEASE HELP ALLOW ME TO PAINT MY BOAT!


US F18 Sailors, what are your opinions on this issue?



If there is no performance advantage to a painted boat, then I have no issue with it. The weight savings of a painted boat is a mute point. The boats must come in a minumum weight anyway and most of the new(er) boats are at or right near minimum weight, so a lighter finish over gel-coat offers no real advantage in that respect.

If the only advantage to a painted boat is in maintenance, repair, and upkeep then bring on the paint. If there are performance advantages to paint, I think everyone would be in agreement to keep paint banned.


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Re: Rules changes [Re: F18arg] #240951
12/08/11 08:36 AM
12/08/11 08:36 AM
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Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Martin -

CS News does excellent coverage of beach cat racing news and reporting....it is very much appreciated!!!! Thus my surprise at the headline relative to the non-sensational (pre-minutes) content on spins. I can imagine the ethical challenge that someone with your resources and interest in the class to know the forthcoming news and yet be restrained from giving it the attention that it duly deserves.

The F18 rule set obviously works. The challenge is keeping it simple yet responding to "loopholes/ambiguities" and "new technology/processes" in a manner that welcomes innovation within the semi-development concept but does not ignore abuses to the rule set nor disenfranchises the class members.


Kris Hathaway
Re: Rules changes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #240954
12/08/11 09:05 AM
12/08/11 09:05 AM
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JACKFLASH Offline
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I would assume if two cloths are not allowed in sails than we are all rule breakers for having windows in our mains and jibs. Technically that would be a different cloth. The sad part about all of this is that there are people who are trying to find the loop holes in the rules for the sole purpose of exploiting them thus creating all of this drama.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: Rules changes [Re: JACKFLASH] #240956
12/08/11 09:28 AM
12/08/11 09:28 AM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by JACKFLASH
I would assume if two cloths are not allowed in sails than we are all rule breakers for having windows in our mains and jibs. Technically that would be a different cloth. The sad part about all of this is that there are people who are trying to find the loop holes in the rules for the sole purpose of exploiting them thus creating all of this drama.


+1


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
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