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Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #240996
12/08/11 06:22 PM
12/08/11 06:22 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Franck, I believe you are advocating the position of 1 member = 1 vote?

If so, I fully agree and with the technology available today it is well within the bounds of feasibility to enable every member to be fully aware of any proposed rule changes and then vote on them in a fully informed manner.

If this were the case, we would not be in the mess we currently see. There is no way the so called "technical report" on paint would have passed inspection by the members and then there would have been a proper review on the matter completed before any votes were made.


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Re: Rules changes [Re: franck] #240998
12/08/11 06:45 PM
12/08/11 06:45 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by franck

Macca,

A you noticed It was not a post upon Mischa's specific boat but about BCM production boats, which are finished with gel coat.

You can believe or not that opening the door of painting now, is as dangerous as allowed carbon in daggerboard.
Except that we can decide to put a limit (1,40 meters under the hull ) to daggerboard and check it quite easily.

How make difference between paints ? No arm, no chocolate means here: no paint, no problem.
The main question is not today's technology or price, it's to prevent chemical research and runaway with no limit.

Franck



Franck,

So you are happy that a BCM std boat is class legal, yet Mischa's Orange boat is not?

The reason it is painted is because he wanted an Orange boat (I think so he could be easier to spot OCS!) and its not possible to make that colour in gelcoat unless you spend a lot of time and money to get it the right colour, then it will fade a lot quicker and will need to be refurbished sooner (normally you would do this with paint, but that is now illegal, so you have to gelcoat it and add around 5kg to the weight... genius!!)

Perhaps the class should ban coloured hulls, it is much cheaper to only have white gelcoat in stock and it prevents any performance questions arising... As we all know the RED ones are much faster than the rest smile


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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #240999
12/08/11 06:54 PM
12/08/11 06:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Franck,

There is no interpretation needed for the term "shall" ISAF has already defined it for us and it is a mandatory item. The WC must follow the terms set out in the constitution and as such the decisions taken last month are no valid.

Regarding 11.1, The Australian association has submitted a motion to the WC to set aside the rulings from the recent WC meeting and re-hold the meeting within the bounds of the constitution.



the text:
"but members unable to attend shall pass proxy votes to the President of the IF18CA"

I do respect what you think, but be as kind to accept they could be a discussion. The "shall", full mandatory no doubt, obviously (even for a non native english spoken) apply to members not to the WC.
You can't say I do not do my duty so the decisions are invalid. Too easy.

Here you contest decisions taken by representative of 74% of worldwide members, in a very formal way.
So the same people will read carefully the 11.1 and those representative of 74% members see that the WC decide on this dispute and " whose decision shall be final and binding."

For me this it looks like a "formal" dead end and a "formal" waste of time.





Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #241000
12/08/11 06:59 PM
12/08/11 06:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by franck

Macca,

A you noticed It was not a post upon Mischa's specific boat but about BCM production boats, which are finished with gel coat.

You can believe or not that opening the door of painting now, is as dangerous as allowed carbon in daggerboard.
Except that we can decide to put a limit (1,40 meters under the hull ) to daggerboard and check it quite easily.

How make difference between paints ? No arm, no chocolate means here: no paint, no problem.
The main question is not today's technology or price, it's to prevent chemical research and runaway with no limit.

Franck



Franck,

So you are happy that a BCM std boat is class legal, yet Mischa's Orange boat is not?

The reason it is painted is because he wanted an Orange boat (I think so he could be easier to spot OCS!) and its not possible to make that colour in gelcoat unless you spend a lot of time and money to get it the right colour, then it will fade a lot quicker and will need to be refurbished sooner (normally you would do this with paint, but that is now illegal, so you have to gelcoat it and add around 5kg to the weight... genius!!)

Perhaps the class should ban coloured hulls, it is much cheaper to only have white gelcoat in stock and it prevents any performance questions arising... As we all know the RED ones are much faster than the rest smile


No particular emotion, just go to bed, thank you It was interesting. Orange means BFD yesterday ;-(

Re: Rules changes [Re: franck] #241006
12/09/11 05:52 AM
12/09/11 05:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
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Originally Posted by franck
150 members in Germany (90% of the coast frozen 10 month on 12)


Actually, it's not that bad ...


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #241007
12/09/11 06:19 AM
12/09/11 06:19 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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not that good either!! smile



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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #241017
12/09/11 03:01 PM
12/09/11 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by macca

Just how older boats are refurbished now is also a mystery, spraying gelcoat onto a 5 year old F18 is not feasible as any industry professional will attest.




I am certainly not an industry professional but regelcoated my Infusion last winter. It is certainly feasible although labor intensive to remove the old gelcoat. The finish is not what I would consider to be a professional finish but that is due to two mistakes that I made which are both a result having not done it before. I feel very confident that I can refinish the boat with gelcoat and have an excellent finished product. I cannot however attest to the weight difference as the boat has not been weighed as of yet.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #241019
12/09/11 03:16 PM
12/09/11 03:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Colin, Did you spray the entire boat or just the bottoms?

If you did the entire boat the weight gain from resurfacing is between 3 and 5kg

The cost to re-gelcoat an entire hull professionally is approx 3 times more expensive than to paint the boat and the finish will never be as good as original factory or that which can be easily achieved by painting.


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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #241023
12/09/11 05:07 PM
12/09/11 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by macca
Colin, Did you spray the entire boat or just the bottoms?

If you did the entire boat the weight gain from resurfacing is between 3 and 5kg

The cost to re-gelcoat an entire hull professionally is approx 3 times more expensive than to paint the boat and the finish will never be as good as original factory or that which can be easily achieved by painting.


I did the entire boat. I believe the finish of gelcoat can be every bit as good as the highest quality paint job, but you are 100% accurate in the effort required achieve that finish versus paint. I redid my boat in gelcoat because I didn't feel that "I" could produce a decent looking finish in paint (lack of spraying experience) and with gelcoat I could always sand any runs out.

One interesting note about weights. A gallon of gelcoat weighs about the same as a gallon of paint. I don't know if there is more transfer when spraying gelcoat versus paint due to the viscosity differences. I refinished a Hobie 18 in paint a couple of years ago. At the time I worked for a car dealership that had a bodyshop and paint booths so it was easy to slip the painter a 100 dollar bill and some paint and let him spray it. We used more material on that boat then I used in gelcoat on the Infusion. With the paint we had a sealer, than a primer, the paint, and finally the clear coat.

To be perfectly honest, if I had it to do all over again I would do gelcoat again. I don't have the money to pay a pro and I don't have the skills to do paint myself, at least not at the level to achieve results better than I can with gelcoat. 3-5kg's does suck though.


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #241024
12/09/11 05:19 PM
12/09/11 05:19 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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To paint an F18 from scratch will use about 3.5 litres of paint, The coverage with paint is much better than gel, so its less than half the weight of gelcoat by the time you are done.

To do what you have done and spray over an existing surface will use about 1.5-2 litres.

new style paint systems allow you to paint in one shot, greatly saving weight, time and effort.


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Re: Rules changes [Re: Kris Hathaway] #241252
12/14/11 05:47 AM
12/14/11 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Martin -

CS News does excellent coverage of beach cat racing news and reporting....it is very much appreciated!!!! Thus my surprise at the headline relative to the non-sensational (pre-minutes) content on spins. I can imagine the ethical challenge that someone with your resources and interest in the class to know the forthcoming news and yet be restrained from giving it the attention that it duly deserves.

The F18 rule set obviously works. The challenge is keeping it simple yet responding to "loopholes/ambiguities" and "new technology/processes" in a manner that welcomes innovation within the semi-development concept but does not ignore abuses to the rule set nor disenfranchises the class members.



Hi Kris

As promised my take on facts of the sensational news I published last week:
http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/12/f18-rules-fact-sheet-illegal-spinnakers.html

The goal is to bring some light on wc decisions and current (in my opinion) rules mess.

Re: Rules changes [Re: F18arg] #244400
02/21/12 08:33 AM
02/21/12 08:33 AM
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ISAF published three complementary documents (and not only one cool ;)) you can check here:
http://www.sailing.org/2129.php

-first is interpretation, in order to prepare the second one:
-second is amendment
-third is class rules up to date

The second text (amendments2012) is the key one. The main point is paint on hull.
ISAF text is clear and confirmed last world council clarification:

"The following amendments to the Class Rules have been approved to be effective 21th February 2012.
Rule C.7.2
Amendment: Add new rule to read as follows:

C.7.2 MODIFICATIONS, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
(a) Holes not bigger than necessary for the installation fittings and passage of
lines may be made in the hull.
(b) Sealing strips of any suitable material for centreboard/daggerboard slots are
permitted.
(b) Routine maintenance such as painting and polishing is permitted without re- measurement and re-certification, providing that the intention and the effect is to polish the hulls only.
(c) Each hull shall have at least one inspection hatch. All other fittings are optional

Rule D.2.3
Amendment: Delete rule and renumber accordingly.
Rule D.3.1
Amendment: Add “polyester gelcoat” after “glass fibres” so the rule now reads
as follows:

D.3.1 MATERIALS
(a) The hull shells shall be built from polyester or vinylester resin, glass
fibres, polyester gelcoat, a core of PVC, balsa or felt, the combination of wood-epoxy, injected plastic, which shall not be altered other than locally for fittings, and passage of equipment and normal reinforcement. Epoxy glue is permitted for joining components. Every material that is not expressly permitted is prohibited.

END"

In a few words: boat maker have to used polyester gel coat, paint can be used for repair only under responsability of sailors (that's why ISAF moved the item in the class rule).
So painting an entire hull, isn't "routine maintenance" and obviously breaking the rules.

Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #244404
02/21/12 09:03 AM
02/21/12 09:03 AM
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macca Offline
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So the class gets itself into a total mess and takes the band aid approach..... very nice.

And painting an entire hull can certainly be classified as routine maintenance.

Last edited by macca; 02/21/12 09:11 AM.

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Re: Rules changes [Re: macca] #244406
02/21/12 09:57 AM
02/21/12 09:57 AM
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franck Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
So the class gets itself into a total mess and takes the band aid approach..... very nice.

And painting an entire hull can certainly be classified as routine maintenance.


No mess here, all boat makers with the same rules.

WC confirmed by ISAF now make it crystal clear.

Rules can change but with one year notice, in order to be fair.

Painting after repairing a hull is allowed without re-certification ISAF words "providing that the intention and the effect is to polish the hulls only."

You can now ask ISAF if painting an entire hull is routine maintenance for an ordinary club sailor...



Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #244407
02/21/12 10:12 AM
02/21/12 10:12 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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I just did. smile

No problem.


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Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #244415
02/21/12 11:28 AM
02/21/12 11:28 AM
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franck Offline
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ISAF just confirmed F18 World Council and say no entire hull painting but polyester gel coat finish only.
Not less than three files in 2 days: interpretation doc to prepare the amendment and updating class rules:

http://www.sailing.org/2129.php

Then you ask ISAF: "hey, look my entire hull painted, it's ok because only routine maintenance, isn't it ?"

Good luck indeed Macca... ISAF has been crystal clear on your last asking (the first document), it's hard to believe that they now will say "Yes, what we write is without any importance, it's not big deal, do what you want..."

This rule (as other one) can be changed but with one year notice, in order to be fair.
All the boat maker playing same game.


Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #244418
02/21/12 11:38 AM
02/21/12 11:38 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Franck, I have discussed the matter with ISAF and they have confirmed that painting hulls post manufacturer is within the class rules.



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Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #244424
02/21/12 12:06 PM
02/21/12 12:06 PM
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franck Offline
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I agree Macca, it's written

"Routine maintenance such as painting and polishing is permitted without re- measurement and re-certification,..."

please notice the second part, it's also interesting

"...providing that the intention and the effect is to polish the hulls only."

When you get a written ISAF answer just share it.










Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #244433
02/21/12 01:00 PM
02/21/12 01:00 PM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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You have to polish the entire hulls after you have sanded all the gelcoat off.

Re: Rules changes [Re: Sloansailing] #244454
02/21/12 05:45 PM
02/21/12 05:45 PM
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macca Offline
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Or you simply build the boat with no gelcoat, then paint it after its built as the normal maintenance procedure.



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