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Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision #241182
12/13/11 02:59 PM
12/13/11 02:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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cyberspeed  Offline OP
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Well everyone has been waiting for it, I was hoping everything would calm down by the time I got it posted but the rhetoric just keeps escalating.

Keep in mind that there was no intent on causing damage and it was a racing incident that happened quickly in close quarters. Of course blame can be assigned but there was no intent on causing damage or trying to take out the other boat.

Saturday night we had a closed session viewing of the raw footage with both teams at Steve Lohmayer's party. The responsible person admitted mistake, apologized and they all shook hands.

I really hope we can keep the discussion civil and focus on the lessons to be learned. You can view the video on:
www.SailSeries.com


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
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-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241191
12/13/11 03:31 PM
12/13/11 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
Karl needs that spin pole


Jay

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241192
12/13/11 03:44 PM
12/13/11 03:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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I think you are missing the point...

You undermine the game of sailboat racing when you half butt the final result. Somebody should be DSQ'd or RAF'd... DNF is not correct.

I am sorry, I take responsibility and I am liable is outstanding... But, you still have to complete the process of the game.... it's what you agreed to when you entered the race.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: waterbug_wpb] #241193
12/13/11 03:46 PM
12/13/11 03:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Karl needs that spin pole


Good lord...you're on a roll!


Jake Kohl
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241194
12/13/11 03:48 PM
12/13/11 03:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Great video Craig.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Jake] #241195
12/13/11 03:50 PM
12/13/11 03:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Karl needs that spin pole


Good lord...you're on a roll!


No doubt. The onboard from his pole cam showed some scary stuff , on the pole and on the water.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mark Schneider] #241199
12/13/11 04:09 PM
12/13/11 04:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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cyberspeed  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I think you are missing the point...


You are missing the point. I was shooting video, not race committee. I had to put a major project aside to get this done so you could try to slam me.

Last edited by cyberspeed; 12/13/11 04:11 PM.

craig van eaton
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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241201
12/13/11 04:14 PM
12/13/11 04:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Sorry, Comments are not directed at you per se...

The general attitude that F up's get handled by some justice on the beach is just complete BS!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mark Schneider] #241203
12/13/11 04:23 PM
12/13/11 04:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
I think you are missing the point...

You undermine the game of sailboat racing when you half butt the final result. Somebody should be DSQ'd or RAF'd... DNF is not correct.

I am sorry, I take responsibility and I am liable is outstanding... But, you still have to complete the process of the game.... it's what you agreed to when you entered the race.


I just spoke with Riccardi and it sounds as if Skip doesn't see this as his fault.
Looks to me like it's about as straight forward as you can get. The ARC 22 (Skip) had no rights and bore away into the N-20 (Todd) which was to leeward of him. Is there any possible way this isn't the supercat's fault?

p.s. And by the way Rick, awesome work on the throttles. Evasive maneuvering at it's best. Maybe you've found the subject of your next seminar/book.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mark Schneider] #241206
12/13/11 04:32 PM
12/13/11 04:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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cyberspeed  Offline OP
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Actually it was directed at me...I was the only one that had a post unless you had it aimed at the spin pole joke (which was good by the way).

I was there, I know all that transpired. I was not race committee, I was just letting the sailors involved view the footage in a controlled manner so it would not escalate.

The race is over and there are lessons to be learned here. I am working on another video of the separation incident. Thankfully, that one is about how to do things right.

FYI: That was one quick delete Ding.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
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www.TeamCyberspeed.com
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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #241208
12/13/11 04:48 PM
12/13/11 04:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
I thought I read that "responsibility" had been agreed on.

So... Now what???... No chance to get witness's, cross examine anyone, and have a jury decide on the facts and rule on the RRS.

Without a PC hearing... Skip can legally say that he is NOT avoiding "responsibility" (What he agreed to when he entered the event under the RRS) because the rules violations were not adjudicated.

Classic example of what happens when you make up your own rules...

What purpose is served by the insurance companies screwing both owners and saying pay your own deductibles... we can't sort it out.

AND the racing community knows that all of that word salad that they sign off on ... is just Bull$hit. This is just the wild wild west... "you pays your money... takes your chances."





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241209
12/13/11 04:49 PM
12/13/11 04:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
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ABSOLUTELY AWESOME!!

wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, Iíll hug my elephant, you kiss youíre a $$.Ē
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #241210
12/13/11 04:51 PM
12/13/11 04:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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cyberspeed  Offline OP
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Quote
I just spoke with Riccardi and it sounds as if Skip doesn't see this as his fault.
Looks to me like it's about as straight forward as you can get.


I thought Skip was better than that. After the discussion they had, I can't believe he would try to renig.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241211
12/13/11 05:00 PM
12/13/11 05:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
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Anacortes
A boat that causes major damage MUST retire from racing, its in the RRS. Its plain and simple and to continue racing is violating the RRS, period.

One thing that may have been mentioned but I haven't seen it is insurance. If there is a claim for repairs many times insurance companies require a written report of the incident with fault assigned to one party or the other. Protests serve this purpose and the resultant decision of the protest committee to assign fault makes the decision for the insurance company. Without a protest hearing and protest form, the insurance company can't assign fault, and can't fulfill a claim.


Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241213
12/13/11 05:03 PM
12/13/11 05:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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He did renig on Sunday when I tried to talk to him, I too thought he understood how clear it was that he is in the wrong. Please voice your explanation of who is at fault and why

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241215
12/13/11 05:14 PM
12/13/11 05:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Skip is clearly at fault after carefully reviewing the video. He first cuts Karl off and heads up hard and bounces off of Karl. He then tries to duck hard and get behind Todd unsuccessfully. I thought at first he could argue that Karl pushed him down. That just isn't the case. You can see after he hits Karl he pulls hard on his rudders and accelerates right into Todd. Had he just bounced off Karl and stayed high he would have not hit Todd but would have probably run over the starting mark. Better to hit a starting mark than to hit a boat.

I've been there. I don't fault Skip for continuing. Doubt he knew the extent of the damage and he knew a committee boat was right there to help or tow if needed. Obviously he should have dsq'd himself after he saw the damage. I also understand making a mistake. I don't understand him not taking responsibility. Windward / Leeward. It's not much more basic than that. Todd had no chance to avoid the situation.

Oh yeah, And shame on Karl for trying to jump in there. Nice try but I'd have cut Karl off too. Karl thought better of it and got out of it nice and clean. Karl you barging SOB. :))


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mike Hill] #241218
12/13/11 05:23 PM
12/13/11 05:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Skip is clearly at fault after carefully reviewing the video. He first cuts Karl off and heads up hard and bounces off of Karl. He then tries to duck hard and get behind Todd unsuccessfully. I thought at first he could argue that Karl pushed him down. That just isn't the case. You can see after he hits Karl he pulls hard on his rudders and accelerates right into Todd. Had he just bounced off Karl and stayed high he would have not hit Todd but would have probably run over the starting mark. Better to hit a starting mark than to hit a boat.

I've been there. I don't fault Skip for continuing. Doubt he knew the extent of the damage and he knew a committee boat was right there to help or tow if needed. Obviously he should have dsq'd himself after he saw the damage. I also understand making a mistake. I don't understand him not taking responsibility. Windward / Leeward. It's not much more basic than that. Todd had no chance to avoid the situation.

Oh yeah, And shame on Karl for trying to jump in there. Nice try but I'd have cut Karl off too. Karl thought better of it and got out of it nice and clean. Karl you barging SOB. :))


Skip goes toward the bow to un-skewer his pole from the N-20's hull. I think he knew the extent of the damage.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: wildtsail] #241219
12/13/11 05:26 PM
12/13/11 05:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Facts Found:
1) Wind was approximately 10-12 kts, light chop.
2) ARC-22 and Nacra 20 were approaching the starting line on starboard tack.
3) ARC-22 established an overlap from astern and to weather of Nacra 20.
4) Approximately 2 seconds after the start, ARC-22 bore away, striking Nacra 20 with her fixed spinnaker pole just aft of Nacra 20's rear cross beam. The spinnaker pole pierced the hull and the boats were locked together for approximately 30 seconds.
5) ARC-20 sailed over the starting pin while the boats were locked together.
5) Nacra 20 sustained significant damage - a hull tear approximately 3 feet long - that forced her to immediately retire.
6) After the boats separated, ARC-22 continued in the race.

Conclusions:
ARC-22 broke rule 11 (windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat)
ARC-22 broke rule 14 (avoid a collision)
ARC-22 did not start properly and broke rule 28.1 (string rule) by sailing over the starting pin.

Decision:
ARC-22 is DSQ. Nacra 20 is entitled to redress under 62.1(b)

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mike Hill] #241220
12/13/11 05:28 PM
12/13/11 05:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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Quote
bounces off of Karl.

Karl said he did not make contact. He adjusted his course abruptly to avoid.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: mbounds] #241221
12/13/11 05:29 PM
12/13/11 05:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Facts Found:
1) Wind was approximately 10-12 kts, light chop.
2) ARC-22 and Nacra 20 were approaching the starting line on starboard tack.
3) ARC-22 established an overlap from astern and to weather of Nacra 20.
4) Approximately 2 seconds after the start, ARC-22 bore away, striking Nacra 20 with her fixed spinnaker pole just aft of Nacra 20's rear cross beam. The spinnaker pole pierced the hull and the boats were locked together for approximately 30 seconds.
5) ARC-20 sailed over the starting pin while the boats were locked together.
5) Nacra 20 sustained significant damage - a hull tear approximately 3 feet long - that forced her to immediately retire.
6) After the boats separated, ARC-22 continued in the race.

Conclusions:
ARC-22 broke rule 11 (windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat)
ARC-22 broke rule 14 (avoid a collision)
ARC-22 did not start properly and broke rule 28.1 (string rule) by sailing over the starting pin.

Decision:
ARC-22 is DSQ. Nacra 20 is entitled to redress under 62.1(b)


+1!


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