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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241222
12/13/11 05:31 PM
12/13/11 05:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Quote
bounces off of Karl.

Karl said he did not make contact. He adjusted his course abruptly to avoid.


It sure looks and sounds like it in the video, but Karl would be the one that knows.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241223
12/13/11 05:32 PM
12/13/11 05:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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I had to watch it in slo-mo a couple of times to make sure there hadn't been contact with Karl. I still would not take bets on who would be ruled at fault between Karl and Skip if this went to the room. Blame can be passed up the line.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: waterbug_wpb] #241225
12/13/11 05:42 PM
12/13/11 05:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Karl needs that spin pole


Jay you are Killing me!

I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything, or I'd need a new keyboard!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241227
12/13/11 05:55 PM
12/13/11 05:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241228
12/13/11 05:56 PM
12/13/11 05:56 PM
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brucat Offline
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This is a highly unusual situation, we don't normally have video. And, in more than one instance, I can see testimony that doesn't quite add up to the pictures.

Based solely on the video (no testimony), I agree with Matt's analysis; although saying that ARC (Wave) didn't start correctly assumes that he never corrected before starting (granted, a moot point).

While RRS 44.1(b) requires a boat that has broken a rule to retire if she caused serious damage; there is some leeway, in that Wave may not have thought she broke a rule (and who knows what they were thinking at that point?).

Wave definitely hit Stray Cats (you can see the shock in the pole-mounted camera at 1:25 in the video), AFTER coming up to do so. It was a rather light tap, so Karl may not have been aware of it.

After viewing the video, I don't think Wave has any hope of saying that Stray Cats forced Wave to hit Adrenaline. There was too much room between the Stray Cats and Adrenaline, and Wave did too much maneuvering to be considered innocent. Wave should have sheeted out and stopped after hitting Stray Cats (there was no point at which Wave had a shot of making it across the line without barging).

Mike

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: John Williams] #241230
12/13/11 05:58 PM
12/13/11 05:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


Cogitate away... We gotta have this.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: John Williams] #241231
12/13/11 06:00 PM
12/13/11 06:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


Oh, no. None of these are on my list:

1. Have fun.
2. Pointy end up.
3. Don't hurt your crew.

Mike

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: John Williams] #241232
12/13/11 06:08 PM
12/13/11 06:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Originally Posted by John Williams
Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


Yeah, I want to hear these too. Have to say in all the years I've sailed against Kirk he has never barged. Of course, How would I know I'm always at the pin.

I love number three. "Hey Holmes, Which section did they go through?". Probably that one. "NOPE". Bong.



Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mike Hill] #241233
12/13/11 06:10 PM
12/13/11 06:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Originally Posted by John Williams
Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


Yeah, I want to hear these too. Have to say in all the years I've sailed against Kirk he has never barged. Of course, How would I know I'm always at the pin.

I love number three. "Hey Holmes, Which section did they go through?". Probably that one. "NOPE". Bong.



I wish those pics would get re-posted...hint,hint. I lost 'em. That carbon mast faired much better than the sc-22 from this year. Tad is still sailing with it.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #241234
12/13/11 06:23 PM
12/13/11 06:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Originally Posted by John Williams
Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


Yeah, I want to hear these too. Have to say in all the years I've sailed against Kirk he has never barged. Of course, How would I know I'm always at the pin.

I love number three. "Hey Holmes, Which section did they go through?". Probably that one. "NOPE". Bong.



I wish those pics would get re-posted...hint,hint. I lost 'em. That carbon mast faired much better than the sc-22 from this year. Tad is still sailing with it.


I remember Mary pointing out that Newkirk signed his name on the bridge with a carbon fiber pencil (or was that Todd?).


Jake Kohl
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Jake] #241235
12/13/11 06:31 PM
12/13/11 06:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Originally Posted by John Williams
Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


Yeah, I want to hear these too. Have to say in all the years I've sailed against Kirk he has never barged. Of course, How would I know I'm always at the pin.

I love number three. "Hey Holmes, Which section did they go through?". Probably that one. "NOPE". Bong.



I wish those pics would get re-posted...hint,hint. I lost 'em. That carbon mast faired much better than the sc-22 from this year. Tad is still sailing with it.


I remember Mary pointing out that Newkirk signed his name on the bridge with a carbon fiber pencil (or was that Todd?).


I've never hit a bridge.Yet.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #241236
12/13/11 07:10 PM
12/13/11 07:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


I've never hit a bridge.Yet.


I was talking about the quote....


Jake Kohl
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241237
12/13/11 07:40 PM
12/13/11 07:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: John Williams] #241240
12/13/11 08:35 PM
12/13/11 08:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams

There was a great shot from up on the bridge also.

Quote
I was talking about the quote....

I guess I need to work on my Jakenese.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #241242
12/13/11 09:23 PM
12/13/11 09:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
I guess I need to work on my Jakenese


Hey!


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: TeamChums] #241243
12/13/11 09:34 PM
12/13/11 09:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
I guess I need to work on my Jakenese


Hey!


Don't throw me under THAT bus!


Jake Kohl
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mike Hill] #241245
12/13/11 10:29 PM
12/13/11 10:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Originally Posted by John Williams
Reminds me of the Newkirk/Holmes 10 Commandments of Sailing:

1. Thou shalt not be a barge butt.
2. Thou shalt not overstand the gate with the kite up.
3. Thou shalt not lose sight of which section of the bridge the boat ahead just sailed through.

There are seven others... lemme cogitate.


Yeah, I want to hear these too. Have to say in all the years I've sailed against Kirk he has never barged. Of course, How would I know I'm always at the pin.

I love number three. "Hey Holmes, Which section did they go through?". Probably that one. "NOPE". Bong.



Hey stop killing my resale value :-P

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241248
12/13/11 11:39 PM
12/13/11 11:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 32
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evansdb78 Offline
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E

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 32
After reviewing the play!: The Nacra Infusion and ARC 22 are both barging. The ARC 22 comes up after realizing there is no room above the N20, making contact with the Infusion. (Time to react?) The ARC then bears away and approximately 2 seconds later makes contact with the N20.

I think there is a possibility the Infusion could be at fault being that the ARC tried to come up to avoid contact with N20. In doing so the ARC makes contact with the Infusion, then bears away to avoid further contact.

Also contributing is the fact that it is not a 1 design race, so boats have varying speeds per point of sail. And the start line seems to be set up on a starboard beam reach so the boats cannot slow down by pointing perpendicular to the start line. Therefore boat speeds are pretty high, not allowing much reaction time.

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241249
12/13/11 11:58 PM
12/13/11 11:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
daniel_t Offline
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Palm Harbor, FL
I am new to racing and I want to understand what happened, and what the rules say should have happened. Based on the video given and knowing nothing else but a basic (but far from complete) understanding of the rules, I have some questions/comments.

It looked to me like Stray Cats collided into Team Wave who then, as a direct result of that collision, hit Team Adrenaline.

1) Were there two incidents, or just one? In other words, according to the rules, are both collisions considered separately, or as a single incident?

2) It seems clear that Stray Cats hit Team Wave. Stray Cats was windward and had no rights. Is that correct or am I missing something important?

3) Team Wave did hit Team Adrenaline, but it seems a case could be made that the second collision was a direct result of Stray Cats' failure to keep clear and thus was also Stray Cats' fault.

Based on what little I know of the rules, I expect that Stray Cats was required to retire because of the incident.

Am I making sense, or do I need to review the rules?


Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241251
12/14/11 01:16 AM
12/14/11 01:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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Posts: 756
Newport, RI
Just to clear things up, there was no contact between skip and karl. There was cleary enough room for skip to sail straight and not hit anyone meaning in no way could karl be held responsible for the collision between skip and i. Or he could have rubbed hull against hull with karl doing little to no damage and karl would be at fault. Instead skip overreacted and drastically altered course bearing off trying to make the line rather than bailing like karl and in the process hitting me. Karl in no way forced skip to bear away as I mentioned before there was adequate room for skip to bail without bearing off.
My opinion is skip got flustered (as do the best of us) saw karl coming in hot which wouldn't be shocking in an f18 start, and reacted in fear turning into me.

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