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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241258
12/14/11 08:43 AM
12/14/11 08:43 AM
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Gav F18 Offline
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The video shows skip tapping Karl pretty well.Saying there wasn't any contact is a bit like Ben Ainsley saying he didn't throttle the media boat driver while the camera's clearly show he did on the Finns at the world champs on the weekend.

Daniel, the upwind boat needs to be given a chance to move clear of a right of way boat. When the Arc22 swings upwind as quickly as it did a protest committee will side with the upwind boat that there wasn't an opportunity for them to respond and keep clear.

Both upwind boats shouldn't have been where they were. I've almost had a mast land on my head from an F18 that was rammed by a barging Tornado on a start line. It's not cool and it was lucky the start boat wasn't anchored. We play on relatively big, expensive to repair and powerful machines - respect in your ability is paramount on a race course.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241260
12/14/11 08:59 AM
12/14/11 08:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I've never understood the logic of pinching up at the right end of the line, unless there is some obvious reason, ie. better current, better line to A mark, shallow spots over on the left, etc.

If the line is long enough, you will always be much better off running down to the pin with speed, finding a good hole to puch through, quickly jumping out into clean air, right?

Or were they all pinching up there trying to lay the highest span for going under the bridge?

Where were the two Marstroms and Mike/Dave C20 starting? Up high or running down the line?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: evansdb78] #241261
12/14/11 09:10 AM
12/14/11 09:10 AM
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Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by evansdb78
After reviewing the play!: The Nacra Infusion and ARC 22 are both barging. The ARC 22 comes up after realizing there is no room above the N20, making contact with the Infusion. (Time to react?) The ARC then bears away and approximately 2 seconds later makes contact with the N20.


Infusion responded appropriately. She headed up when challenged and gave up on the pin because the door was shut.

Looks to me that the ARC fended its position against the Infusion by heading up and then bore away to try to catch the pin but caught the N20 with its pole. Should have given way and taken the same path as the Infusion or release its sails before coming back for the pin and follow the N20.



Kris Hathaway
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Timbo] #241262
12/14/11 09:11 AM
12/14/11 09:11 AM
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
I've never understood the logic of pinching up at the right end of the line, unless there is some obvious reason, ie. better current, better line to A mark, shallow spots over on the left, etc.

If the line is long enough, you will always be much better off running down to the pin with speed, finding a good hole to puch through, quickly jumping out into clean air, right?

Or were they all pinching up there trying to lay the highest span for going under the bridge?

Where were the two Marstroms and Mike/Dave C20 starting? Up high or running down the line?


Tim, the first leg to the bridge was a jib reach and there were monster boats in the fleet. It actually worked out pretty well for Ding (who started mid line or a little further left) but I was worried that if I started lower on the line, there was a good chance I would get rolled by the faster boats who's dirty air would keep handing me to the next boat in the freight train and I would end up at the back of the fleet. If it was an upwind beat to the bridge, then yeah, starting down there to get a clear lane of breeze would have been a pretty clear plan - the reach changes things a little.


Jake Kohl
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241266
12/14/11 09:44 AM
12/14/11 09:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Ahhh, I see. Thanks Jake.

Still, is the Super Cat considered one of the faster boats? I can see where Karl and other F18's might have wanted the right side going into a reach, but the Super Cat? I'm just wondering why he was up there, I think he's got a much taller rig than a F18?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: daniel_t] #241268
12/14/11 09:57 AM
12/14/11 09:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by daniel_t
I am new to racing and I want to understand what happened, and what the rules say should have happened. Based on the video given and knowing nothing else but a basic (but far from complete) understanding of the rules, I have some questions/comments.

It looked to me like Stray Cats collided into Team Wave who then, as a direct result of that collision, hit Team Adrenaline.

1) Were there two incidents, or just one? In other words, according to the rules, are both collisions considered separately, or as a single incident?

2) It seems clear that Stray Cats hit Team Wave. Stray Cats was windward and had no rights. Is that correct or am I missing something important?

3) Team Wave did hit Team Adrenaline, but it seems a case could be made that the second collision was a direct result of Stray Cats' failure to keep clear and thus was also Stray Cats' fault.

Based on what little I know of the rules, I expect that Stray Cats was required to retire because of the incident.

Am I making sense, or do I need to review the rules?


The skipper of Stray Cats said they were not hit, it looks to me like they were. That being said the turn up into Karl was too fast to react to ( no time to respond)so not Karl's fault, and was more of a panic move as was the bearaway into the N-20. From all the bow thrashing it appears Skip (arc22) panicked when he had gotten himself into a tight spot. He should have pulled the plug and followed Karl out. It would be interesting to hear the crew of the ARC 22's story.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mike Hill] #241269
12/14/11 10:01 AM
12/14/11 10:01 AM
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Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by Mike Hill
Skip is clearly at fault after carefully reviewing the video. He first cuts Karl off and heads up hard and bounces off of Karl. He then tries to duck hard and get behind Todd unsuccessfully. I thought at first he could argue that Karl pushed him down. That just isn't the case. You can see after he hits Karl he pulls hard on his rudders and accelerates right into Todd. Had he just bounced off Karl and stayed high he would have not hit Todd but would have probably run over the starting mark. Better to hit a starting mark than to hit a boat.

Obviously he should have dsq'd himself after he saw the damage. I also understand making a mistake. I don't understand him not taking responsibility. Windward / Leeward. It's not much more basic than that. Todd had no chance to avoid the situation.

Oh yeah, And shame on Karl for trying to jump in there. Nice try but I'd have cut Karl off too. Karl thought better of it and got out of it nice and clean. Karl you barging SOB. :))


Here is a little insight into the situation:

I have sailed with Skip and against him, and consider him to be a good friend. In fact, I sailed on this very boat in the Steeplechase two years ago. I know well that it is a monster with certain design flaws, i.e. rudders, which make it very unmaneuverable in tight situations.

Couple that with the fact that Skip is relatively new to sailboat racing. His experience has been almost all in the Hobie Wave (hence the name Wave) fleet. To his credit, Skip has done very well with Waves and he has transitioned into A-Cats recently. Skip is very enthusiastic and has gone to extreme lengths to become a better sailor. I’m sure he is sick about what happened.

Having said that, in the Wave Fleet we have a chronic problem with a few sailors who consider barging to be a valid starting tactic. It is so bad that there is virtually no percentage in contesting the pin end. I am amazed that so many of our “good” sailors still try. Fortunately, the Hobie Wave is virtually indestructible and many such encounters are simply considered just racin’. I am not happy with that myself, but it seems to be part of the Wave culture. I don’t like to make waves. smirk

Waves are obviously very maneuverable as well, and you probably could have pulled that trick successfully in one. However, Wave is not a Hobie Wave!

I would guess that in the heat of the moment, basic instincts took over and mistakes were made. We can all appreciate how quickly things turn to **** on these boats.

Based on the evidence, I would be totally surprised if Skip did not step forth and make things right.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Jake] #241270
12/14/11 10:07 AM
12/14/11 10:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Tim, the first leg to the bridge was a jib reach and there were monster boats in the fleet. It actually worked out pretty well for Ding (who started mid line or a little further left) but I was worried that if I started lower on the line, there was a good chance I would get rolled by the faster boats who's dirty air would keep handing me to the next boat in the freight train and I would end up at the back of the fleet. If it was an upwind beat to the bridge, then yeah, starting down there to get a clear lane of breeze would have been a pretty clear plan - the reach changes things a little.


Bob and I started dead on at the pin at the gun and it worked out very well for us. The M20s/F20 and SC22 were far enough above us that their dirty was never an issue. We got rolled by Jim before the bridge but it wasn't because of where we started it was because we didn't have the speed Jim had as the breeze softened on the approach to the bridge. If we could have kept pace it never would have been an issue for us and we would have been 4th through the brige behind the big boats. For us the pin was a good call and we'd do it again, the boat end is where the rif raf hangs out. :-)


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241272
12/14/11 10:47 AM
12/14/11 10:47 AM
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Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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Dave and I started the F20c mid line in the middle of a Marstrom sandwich. If you look at the video, you can see the yellow Marstrom, myself, and the gray Marstrom starting below the pack.

I had the same concerns of starting to leeward of the SC22's and getting rolled on the reach to the bridge, but decided that there was going to pile up at the committee boat end and it wasn't worth the risk.

As it turned out, we had enough boat speed to pull out from between the Marstoms, and the SC22's were never a threat.

We were very conservative going under the bridge and passed through on the 3rd span from the center. Being the first boat to the bridge, we didn't want to take any chances. The Marstoms passed a couple spans inside of us and made some gains to weather having a higher lane.

Last edited by mikekrantz; 12/14/11 10:47 AM.
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mugrace72] #241275
12/14/11 11:18 AM
12/14/11 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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cyberspeed  Offline OP
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Originally Posted by Mugrace72
Based on the evidence, I would be totally surprised if Skip did not step forth and make things right.


I was really shocked to hear Skip renig after admitting fault at the end of the meeting. I did not realize that he changed his mind the next day. I told Todd I can give him a statement about Skip admitting fault and their handshake.

Skip's crew got pissed off in the middle of the meeting believing they were not at fault and walked away. He did not state why he thought they were not at fault but it was probably best he walked away.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
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Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241280
12/14/11 11:46 AM
12/14/11 11:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
I believe Craig will verify what I am telling you about the line. After I set the port end I first started toward the starboard end perpendicular to the bridge (the course). But, knowing ALL the fleet would want to be there at the starboard end, I then headed 30 degrees farther south to set the starboard end, thus making the port favored. Craig even questioned why I was setting the starting line in such a way.
In the other thread Jake asked about this.
Reaching starts are very different than upwind starts and require different tactics. As Dave Ingram said, the pin end was already 20 boat lenghts closer to the bridge than the starboard end.
And indeed, most of the hot boats were down that way.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Mike Hill] #241282
12/14/11 11:49 AM
12/14/11 11:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
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rexdenton Offline
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ISAF Rule 18.2, section e:

"If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it."


Based on the video that is about as clear as the day is long. And yes, the astern boat did clearly bounce off Karl's boat, immediately changing course and hitting the N20 boat. Should have staying high and just running over the mark would have been proper.

To that point:

SECTION B
GENERAL LIMITATIONS
"A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled to room or mark-room
(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room, and (not relevant...as the offending boat was not damaged)


Which brings us to the following:
PENALTIES AT THE TIME OF AN INCIDENT
44.1 Taking a Penalty

(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

IMHO In the spirit of good sportsmanship, skip of the boat causing damage break out his check book, and everyone should shake hands. Furthermore, the damaged boat should have reported retiring after the incident. That would be the right thing to do. My two cents worth.

Last edited by rexdenton; 12/14/11 11:50 AM.

Nacra F18 #856
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: rexdenton] #241283
12/14/11 11:54 AM
12/14/11 11:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Boston, Ma
Rex,

Check the preamble of section C:

Section C rules do not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable
water or at its anchor line from the time boats are approaching
them to start until they have passed them. When rule 20 applies,
rules 18 and 19 do not.

This doesn't change the fact that the N20 was a leeward boat, and the ARC was the keep clear boat.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: rexdenton] #241284
12/14/11 11:56 AM
12/14/11 11:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by rexdenton
ISAF Rule 18.2, section e:

"If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it."

Based on the video that is about as clear as the day is long. And yes, the astern boat did clearly bounce off Karl's boat, immediately changing course and hitting the N20 boat. Should have staying high and just running over the mark would have been proper.

Rule 18 doesn't apply at starting marks. Read the preamble to Section C.

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: RickWhite] #241286
12/14/11 12:00 PM
12/14/11 12:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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cyberspeed  Offline OP
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
Originally Posted by RickWhite
I believe Craig will verify what I am telling you about the line. After I set the port end I first started toward the starboard end perpendicular to the bridge (the course). But, knowing ALL the fleet would want to be there at the starboard end, I then headed 30 degrees farther south to set the starboard end, thus making the port favored. Craig even questioned why I was setting the starting line in such a way.


I can verify this. After Rick's explaination and looking at the course, I believe he did the right thing. The problem was that ALL the boats were to the East of the line and none were in the starting area 20 seconds from the start.

You guys are trying to treat this 120 MILE distance race as a normal buoy race.
You can't just have one race thrown out and do the next race. The next leg starts 70 miles away.
You can actually pass other boats by paddling and races have been won that way.
You can receive outside assistance and no be Disqualified instead receive a time penalty. This came about because a boat capsized in one of the channels a couple miles from the finish on the second day and would have destroyed the boat or endangered lives if outside assistance was refused.

Most of the races done down here operate the same way otherwise no one would put them on. The thing that bothers me was that Skip did not check to see if the other boat was OK. We were there but it is the right thing to do.

Last edited by cyberspeed; 12/14/11 12:02 PM.

craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241287
12/14/11 12:00 PM
12/14/11 12:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Hey Matt,
Can you post the guidelines that pertain to barging and apply them in this case? I think alot of folks don't grasp the concept, do it and think they got a good start.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241291
12/14/11 12:23 PM
12/14/11 12:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Jeff.Dusek  Offline
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Boston, Ma
I'm working on a response, will post in a bit


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #241297
12/14/11 12:30 PM
12/14/11 12:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Hey Matt,
Can you post the guidelines that pertain to barging and apply them in this case? I think alot of folks don't grasp the concept, do it and think they got a good start.

The word "barging" does not appear in the rule book at all.

Basically, you're not entitled to mark room at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water.

The windward boat must keep clear of a leeward boat. The leeward boat is entitled to luff as she pleases (to head to wind) subject only to the limitations of rule 16 (allowing the other boat to keep clear).

In practicality, this means that you can go nearly head to wind directly behind the committee boat, park, and as long as you can maintain that position, nobody is entitled to "barge in".

Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: cyberspeed] #241306
12/14/11 01:10 PM
12/14/11 01:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Thanks.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Steeplechase Video: Day 1 Start Collision [Re: mbounds] #241312
12/14/11 01:26 PM
12/14/11 01:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 297
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rexdenton Offline
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rexdenton  Offline
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Thanks for the re-direct.

I was going to add thje ARC was 'windward boat' as well, (but it seems so obvious to anyone that races...)


Nacra F18 #856
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