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Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: jkkartz1] #242295
01/11/12 02:55 PM
01/11/12 02:55 PM
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David Ingram Offline
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That has to be the best Rule 40 posts yet! Can't get more straight forward than that.


David Ingram
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Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: brucat] #242301
01/11/12 08:06 PM
01/11/12 08:06 PM
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Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Wow. Just, wow...

I suggest more of you spend some quality time in seminars and serving on protest committees at larger (non-cat) regattas. Not to learn the rules (although, clearly, some of that is needed here), but to understand why simple is good, and accepting the rules as written is most often the best way to go.

Having said that, I do agree that a good rule change would be to allow boats to continue racing after receiving help when a crew member is in the water. It's not easy to imagine a scenario where they will gain an advantage doing this, without breaking Rule 2. [Edit: And by rule change, I mean an actual change to the RRS.]

Mike

so what happens if multiple boats require assistance to recover a crew, a support or other boat assists, but can only help one at a time. What ever boat get aided first then have a material advantage over the other aided boats. This is something that used to happen in Formula 1 Racing when cars could be pushed out of the gravel traps etc and allowed to continue racing...of course some guy would get pushed out first and others would be fuming waiting for their turn to get pushed out.





Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: Tornado] #242302
01/11/12 08:21 PM
01/11/12 08:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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I'd like to see something added specifically to address the downwind gate courses. It's a bit of a cluster@#$% with numbers of boats coming in on port gybe, some gybing at the Starboard marker, other continuing across the gate to the Port marker. Giveway boats don't know if they need to leave room for an inside overlapped RoW boat to gybe around the starboard marker or to bear away allowing Row to proceed across to the port marker.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: Mark Schneider] #242303
01/11/12 09:28 PM
01/11/12 09:28 PM
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brucat Offline
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Mike, I think that would fall into the category of luck. In my exprience, it is extremely uncommon for more than one sailor to be away from a boat.

Most times, even when multiple boats are capsized, the crews are all with the boats. I've seen events where fully 1/3 of the boats are over (simultaneously), and not one crew was separated, let alone several.

I think this is one of those cases where the value of safety should outweigh a (remote) chance of unfairness.

Remember, we're not saying that boats getting assistance righting should be allowed to continue (everyone should be able to right themselves assuming all crew are present); but only if a sailor is lost overboard with no chance of getting back to the boat.

A capsized boat is (usually) a pretty safe place to be, and is almost always better than being in the water. The obvious exception is when being blown onto rocks.

Of course, we don't have to change the rule, and it won't realistically change much. Most times, the crews are more than happy to jump on the first boat that arrives!

Mike

Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: Mark Schneider] #242307
01/12/12 10:34 AM
01/12/12 10:34 AM
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california
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Our rule change only applies youth teams getting help and being allowed to continue. adults your done get over it if you get help.


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Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: Mark Schneider] #242308
01/12/12 11:54 AM
01/12/12 11:54 AM
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brucat Offline
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To me, this seems to be one of those rules that probably shouldn't change from event to event. You certainly wouldn't want to have to take a DSQ in a distance race for this.

Again, it happens so infrequently, and the consequences can be (and have been) literally fatal; I really don't see an issue with allowing this across the board.

BTW, if the SIs are written to change RRS 41, it isn't "nullifying" the rule, as this is allowed in RRS. To me, nullifying is ignoring a rule that hasn't been (or especially, can't be) changed.

Mike

Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: Mark Schneider] #242310
01/12/12 04:53 PM
01/12/12 04:53 PM
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Hullflyer1 Offline
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When I raced H-16's and P-16's in the 1980's a throwable was required. We just tied them to the underside of the tramp to the center lacing.

Re: Rule Nullification.... which rules do you choose to Nullify? [Re: brucat] #242328
01/13/12 03:41 PM
01/13/12 03:41 PM
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Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Hillsborough, NC USA
Originally Posted by brucat
...a good rule change would be to allow boats to continue racing after receiving help when a crew member is in the water. It's not easy to imagine a scenario where they will gain an advantage doing this, without breaking Rule 2. [Edit: And by rule change, I mean an actual change to the RRS.]

In the 2005-2008 RRS, Rule 41(a) permitted "help as provided for in rule 1". That allowed boats to continue racing after receiving assistance for righting, or helping a crew member in the water. That rule, however, was stricken from the 2009-2012 rules. I asked some senior judges why that rule was removed and they tell me that it was for simplicity and consistency. Now it's back to the original way - When a boat receives outside help, her race is over. If a distance regatta wants to permit a boat to continue, then they can change RRS 41 in the sailing instructions.

I hope that helps,
Eric

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