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Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243122
01/27/12 09:38 AM
01/27/12 09:38 AM
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pgp Offline
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"In my opinion if the Viper is selected the F16 class would take a bigger hit than if the Nacra 17 is selected. First thing that comes to mind would be fiddling with the class rules. "

I'm not following your logic. Imo, these are two different things, an Olympic boat and F16 class.

The Viper is successful in it's own right and fills a market niche. An Olympic version might be lighter than the standard model, built of solid Unobtainium so that it is stiff to a fault, cost much more and still fall within the F16 class rule. Still only an elite sailor will be able to utilize the enhanced performance.


Pete Pollard
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Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pgp] #243124
01/27/12 09:53 AM
01/27/12 09:53 AM
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Press release from Nacra:

http://nacrasailing.com/index.php?o...mp;catid=35%3Anews#.TyK-3DQXnw0.facebook

Quote
NACRA 17

For the other submission we designed a complete new boat which is called simply the NACRA 17! This boat fits within these criteria so good that we truly hope this will gets chosen. Of course we are okay with the F16 to get chosen but as CATAMARAN lovers we would like the NACRA 17 shine at the Olympics with its curved dagger boards! The Nacra 17 truly is showing what Multihull sailing 2.0 is all about, just like the F20 Carbon. The loads are adjusted on the NACRA 17 for a MIXED crew and we need your help to get this chosen. Here are some of the bullet points you can use in your promotion: The NACRA 17 is actually 17.6 foot long. Resulting in a more versatile platform that can carry the crew loads even better. This combined with the curved dagger boards makes it the Olympic multihull towards the future where the Elite sailing athletes of the world can run their campaigns with.

Wave piercing hulls = Less drag through water
Super stiff platform = speed
Light weight = easy to handle
Robust = durable
Modern rig = designed with latest flow technology
Full compliancy with ISAF criteria
No interference with any other class sailing out there today
Specifically designed for Elite athletes of the world and Olympic purpose
Curved boards lift the lee bow out of the water reducing drag significantly
Sheet loads are reduced = does not matter if male or female is skipper or crew
Better control in windy conditions
The Nacra 17 results into a agile high speed machine giving both sailors and spectators a spectacular close racing fleet.


Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: David Ingram] #243126
01/27/12 09:56 AM
01/27/12 09:56 AM
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Kris Hathaway Offline
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Formula Class racing removes the yardstick/handicap variable while keeping the racing open to multiple builders while encouring controlled development. I see it as here to stay.

I would even argue that the formula concept improves racing between classes.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Tony_F18] #243130
01/27/12 10:40 AM
01/27/12 10:40 AM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Proof will be on the water... (can they get the bugs worked out in time)


the assertion that 17-6 carries loads better ???.... Huh? the range of the competitors is the issue. so starting at 260 lbs and up... Does 17-6 give you a larger range then 16 feet. I don't understand how more sailpower/larger boat results in lower sheet loads for the sheet hand. so... proof will be on the water.

Won't disrupt any racing class world wide. I think this is a major plus factor.

EG... Miami OCR's are 600 bucks for 5 days of racing... and a spaghetti dinner/cash bar! The mixed multi circuit will then duplicate this event several more times around the world and the class leaders will be off to play overseas at similar week long events. Totally different culture then the popular racing classes in the US. IMO... having Mixed Multihull cleanly off on their own boat.... with feeder class of F16 and F18 is a huge plus for the Nacra boat IMO.

The committee wants a boat with the max crew range that will not discourage sailors from countries who's people are smaller in stature. So... if 17-6 and their rig works better then the F16 solution... time will tell.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pgp] #243133
01/27/12 10:45 AM
01/27/12 10:45 AM
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Kris Hathaway Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
I'm not following your logic.

I think you missed his point.

Dave et al, it is pretty damn hard to fiddle with the F16 rules and it is offensive to all that are involved in the F16 class, including the manufacturers. In fact, I have been pleasantly surprised by the civility and cohesiveness by all parties involved.

Just don't drink the Kool-Aid and you'll be OK grin!!! Of course there will be marketing spin...it is to be expected but in the end, the F16 class is bigger than any one manufacturer or region in the world.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Kris Hathaway] #243139
01/27/12 11:07 AM
01/27/12 11:07 AM
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Kris... Isaf won't "fiddle" with the class rules...

They just lay out the paramaters for olympics.... "The Olympic TORNADO class will have double traps and a spinnaker". The regatta circuit to qualify is this. the Worlds are at XXX. Now... the class members gets to choose... Tornado (run by the class) or Olympic Tornado (run by isaf). The T Class rank and file members voted NOT to add a spin and trap.... then ISAF spoke... then magic happened and the class rank and file fell in line... the Tornado Class had double traps and a spin


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: David Ingram] #243140
01/27/12 11:10 AM
01/27/12 11:10 AM
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Wouter Offline
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... First thing that comes to mind would be fiddling with the class rules ...


They may fiddle with the Viper class rules all they want, but the F16 class rules will proceed as it has done over the last 10 years.

In that respect both the F18 and F16 classes share a common vision.





Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243141
01/27/12 11:17 AM
01/27/12 11:17 AM
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pgp Offline
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I can think of several marketing advantages to keeping Viper in the F16 class. But I see nothing keeping AHPC from building an Olympic Viper. Again, one does not exclude the other.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Mark Schneider] #243142
01/27/12 11:19 AM
01/27/12 11:19 AM
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Kris Hathaway Offline
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Mark...and?????

I do not believe that the F16 class is going to adopt 2-piece masts as mandatory because one of the F16 boats would be required by virtue of being an Olympic boat. Do you?

I do not see the F16 class requiring all regattas to be 2-up mixed just because the Olympic competition requires it. Do you?

The Tornado example is poor. Single, tightly controlled design. Certainly not the formula classes today.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Kris Hathaway] #243143
01/27/12 11:19 AM
01/27/12 11:19 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Kris, the post was not penned with intent to offend anyone. It's just an opinion based on my observations and what I know motivates people. By all means feel free to disregard it.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Mark Schneider] #243144
01/27/12 11:24 AM
01/27/12 11:24 AM
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Wouter Offline
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... Does 17-6 give you a larger range then 16 feet. ....


Should read : Does 17-6 give you a larger range then 16-5 feet.


F16's are actually longer then 16 foot too.

Last edited by Wouter; 01/27/12 11:24 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243147
01/27/12 11:37 AM
01/27/12 11:37 AM
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pgp Offline
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Noone's offended as far as I can see, just more conjecture on what IOC's intentions are.

In the end, imo, it will be ONE boat for the Olympics and it will be similar to the AC45. Because those folks have the clout to make it happen.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Wouter] #243148
01/27/12 11:37 AM
01/27/12 11:37 AM
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Wouter Offline
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While I don't see much difference between the nacra F16 and the nacra 17, I do think their argument about the latter not interfering with any existing class does hold water.

Other then that they can just as easily put curved boards on the nacra F16 and get the same benefits while reducing stocks and production costs. Give the boat a different name like nacra O-cat for Olympic cat and everything will be dandy. Best of both worlds ?

After all the claim is that with lifting foils one dependents alot less on hull length for performance, right ?

Last edited by Wouter; 01/27/12 11:39 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Wouter] #243152
01/27/12 11:52 AM
01/27/12 11:52 AM

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MarkMT
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MarkMT
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M



I too like the fact that this is separate from the existing formula classes and shouldn't impact them negatively to any great degree. What we don't know yet is what the other builders have proposed. It wouldn't surprise me to see additional non-Fxx submissions.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243156
01/27/12 12:33 PM
01/27/12 12:33 PM
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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Just some random thought on the subject...Did anyone stop and think that this new NACRA 17 may be just a F18 in disguise? The mold could very well be set up as an F18 with just a 6” plug added to the rear to make it 17’-6”…for now. Or at least put them in a position to pounce with a new F18 if/when the class becomes willing to change their current limitations on weight and exclusion of curved boards.
It could also be a good test on how many would accept a lighter weight, curved board, state of the art design in the F18 “territory”…without all the back lash that they would get if they did it as a new anti-rule version of an F18. I would think it would be very hard to go back to a standard F18 after “tasting” all the best of the current design with some coveted upgrades. How many posts have been made which questioned the minimum weight or asked about the option of curved boards?

Very tactful way to draw people away from the status quo… rather than trying to “push” them into something that is actually better for them, but which they have chosen to vehemently resist. Same technique I hear they use to get stubborn cattle into a trailer…you line them up on the trailer ramp with their butt facing the trailer opening…then act like you are trying to pull them forward away from the trailer…they naturally want to resist and back up….which is of course exactly what you want them to do and they put “themselves” in the trailer with minimal effort. Cows….people…the principal is the same…and so is its effectiveness.

Lighter weight, curved boards...regardless of what you say...you know you want them...that's where everything is heading...
Do not resist...You will be assimilated....LOL...resistance is futile...LOL

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Seeker] #243158
01/27/12 12:44 PM
01/27/12 12:44 PM
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David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker
Just some random thought on the subject...Did anyone stop and think that this new NACRA 17 may be just a F18 in disguise? The mold could very well be set up as an F18 with just a 6” plug added to the rear to make it 17’-6”…for now. Or at least put them in a position to pounce with a new F18 if/when the class becomes willing to change their current limitations on weight and exclusion of curved boards.
It could also be a good test on how many would accept a lighter weight, curved board, state of the art design in the F18 “territory”…without all the back lash that they would get if they did it as a new anti-rule version of an F18. I would think it would be very hard to go back to a standard F18 after “tasting” all the best of the current design with some coveted upgrades. How many posts have been made which questioned the minimum weight or asked about the option of curved boards?

Very tactful way to draw people away from the status quo… rather than trying to “push” them into something that is actually better for them, but which they have chosen to vehemently resist. Same technique I hear they use to get stubborn cattle into a trailer…you line them up on the trailer ramp with their butt facing the trailer opening…then act like you are trying to pull them forward away from the trailer…they naturally want to resist and back up….which is of course exactly what you want them to do and they put “themselves” in the trailer with minimal effort. Cows….people…the principal is the same…and so is its effectiveness.

Lighter weight, curved boards...regardless of what you say...you know you want them...that's where everything is heading...
Do not resist...You will be assimilated....LOL...resistance is futile...LOL


Yes yes resistance is futile and the F18HT is a raging success. Bunch of f!@king haters.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Seeker] #243159
01/27/12 01:00 PM
01/27/12 01:00 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker
Just some random thought on the subject...Did anyone stop and think that this new NACRA 17 may be just a F18 in disguise? The mold could very well be set up as an F18 with just a 6” plug added to the rear to make it 17’-6”…for now. Or at least put them in a position to pounce with a new F18 if/when the class becomes willing to change their current limitations on weight and exclusion of curved boards.
It could also be a good test on how many would accept a lighter weight, curved board, state of the art design in the F18 “territory”…without all the back lash that they would get if they did it as a new anti-rule version of an F18. I would think it would be very hard to go back to a standard F18 after “tasting” all the best of the current design with some coveted upgrades. How many posts have been made which questioned the minimum weight or asked about the option of curved boards?

Very tactful way to draw people away from the status quo… rather than trying to “push” them into something that is actually better for them, but which they have chosen to vehemently resist. Same technique I hear they use to get stubborn cattle into a trailer…you line them up on the trailer ramp with their butt facing the trailer opening…then act like you are trying to pull them forward away from the trailer…they naturally want to resist and back up….which is of course exactly what you want them to do and they put “themselves” in the trailer with minimal effort. Cows….people…the principal is the same…and so is its effectiveness.

Lighter weight, curved boards...regardless of what you say...you know you want them...that's where everything is heading...
Do not resist...You will be assimilated....LOL...resistance is futile...LOL


it's pretty safe to assume that F18 is not going to get lighter or get curved boards in a long, long time (I stopped just short of saying "ever"). But, having an "almost" F18 that incorporates these things could be an interesting position in that teams could train with the huge global F18 fleet (on F18s) and transition to the new boat (essentially a lighter F18 with curved foils).


Jake Kohl
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: David Ingram] #243160
01/27/12 01:15 PM
01/27/12 01:15 PM
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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Was it the F18HT concept that was bad? or just the execution? It seems like another case where one attempt was made and written off just because that particular builder didn't get it right...or people tried to make a long distance racer out of a particular inland/protected coastal water design that was never engineered or designed for that extreme application.

It parallels the mentality that led to the demise of the 18sq class...one guy came up with a better idea and everyone else thru up their hands and gave up. Wishing much success to NACRA with their new 17 and their ability to build a +-18 footer that is reasonable in weight and incorporates the new improvements that curved dagger boards offer...lets hope they can bring it in at a competitive price or it will make it harder for anyone else to broach the subject in the future.

No hate here or profanity on this end...

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Kris Hathaway] #243161
01/27/12 01:18 PM
01/27/12 01:18 PM
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Pensacola Florida
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Tom Whitehurst Offline
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Kris,

You're a little naive to think the F16 class rules will keep "Olympic Sailors" from making changes. They will exploit everything to no end. The F16 is about as open as they come and what you see today in the F16 class will be extinct by the 2016 Olympics. You'll see changes at very event to push the envelope because that is what happens.

As an owner of either an F16 or F18 whatever boat is selected will get highly competitive very fast. There are strong reasons not to want to be in this league for the average cat sailor.

By virtue that Nacra has introduce a totally new 17 concept has a lot of merit. No proven record of course but as s SMOD most development will be controlled. Take the Laser and the Euro Moth as just one example. While the Euro was a OD you could liter change everything to no end. The Laser is more cost effective and keeps the cost to a min and this has been the trend of what I think the Olympic committee wants to see.

TW

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: David Ingram] #243162
01/27/12 01:19 PM
01/27/12 01:19 PM
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Punta Gorda, FL
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How many of the pros (no one commenting on this thread, no offense intended)in the F18 class will change their emphasis to an Olympic bid in any new class? Maybe they will be competing in both classes.

I hope that the selection process is transparent. Timely (daily) reports of the trials would be acceptable. If I could dig deep in my collection of Multihulls Magazines, I could find the report from when the "new" Toronado was selected. Back then with publishing delays I learned of the change months later. From what I have seen of the ISAF Technical Committee it is a highly qualified group. It includes builders,designers coaches and sailors, all with impressive resumes.

Will the choice make everyone happy?

NO.

What ever is chosen I only hope to get a ride on one. I'm just glad that a cat will be back in the Olympics.

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