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Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Seeker] #243163
01/27/12 01:32 PM
01/27/12 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Seeker

No hate here or profanity on this end...


You can be so superior.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Kris Hathaway] #243165
01/27/12 01:47 PM
01/27/12 01:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Kris wrote.
I do not believe that the F16 class is going to adopt 2-piece masts as mandatory because one of the F16 boats would be required by virtue of being an Olympic boat. Do you?

Nope...

I do not see the F16 class requiring all regattas to be 2-up mixed just because the Olympic competition requires it. Do you?

Nope

BUT... ISAF will just create the new class and leave the F16's to their own devices... (lord knows you have your own quirky view of the world) The Tornado class sailors finally choose to get in line with the changes BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY WOULD DIE A QUICK DEATH IF THEY DID NOT...

You would have F16 (1 up and 2up racing) and Olympic Viper (for example) racing... Olympic will have critical mass on the water..

Time and money are limited... Tell me how the F16 class would be served if 5 of your 20 racers at tradewinds this year were spending their money two weeks later at the OCR's in 2013.

The issue is not forcing the F16 class members to do something they don't want to... The issue is... can you have a viable F16 class when the top sailors race mixed multihull on a F16 flavor and so they don't really participate in F16 events.. You also have some non olympic F16 sailors with vipers who now can choose between two events... AND then you also compete for racers with the F18 and Hobie 16 class.

The F18 class went all out to discourage Olympic selection... I think they understood the situation as I present it.

Can they hit the mark on affordability with this boat so that MNA's think it is comparable in value and performance with the new woman's skiff to be chosen.
Does it have a bigger weight range for competitors.
Does it have sheet loads that allow woman to compete at either end.
Does it sail as well as the F16's and F18's for Olympic mixed.
Does the committee think this boat will hit the ground in numbers by the 2013 northern Hemisphere sailing season or do they need a boat with many units already out and about.

I hope they recruit an articulate set of test sailors from the target MNA's who can communicate about the choice.

I hope the answer is yes for the F16 class's sake and you only used up one of your nine lives.





crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: David Ingram] #243166
01/27/12 01:51 PM
01/27/12 01:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
addict
Seeker  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Dave, superior? No ...just interested in catamaran development...have no hate for the F18 or any other class...it is just an interesting study looking at why people gravitate to one boat or another...why one person clings to a certain attribute and another is constantly looking for advancements...not saying one is better than the other...simple as that...no other agenda...I was trying to defuse any misrepresentation with the LOL's...I guess they didn't effectively communicate that...

As I said before...no hate here...life is too short... remember cat sailing, and talking about cat sailing is supposed to be fun.... not a high blood pressure trigger.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243170
01/27/12 03:08 PM
01/27/12 03:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
Everything is possible subject for discussion and cost/advantage ratio analysis, effect on the existing fleet, and sufficient notice given to all stakeholders...


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Mark Schneider] #243171
01/27/12 03:39 PM
01/27/12 03:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
BUT... ISAF will just create the new class and leave the F16's to their own devices...

So....that will happen in some shape or form anyway regardless of which boat is chosen. If the boat so happens to fit the F16 rule, then they will also be able to compete in F16 events. Do you really think that all existing F16 owners are going to pitch their non-F16 Olympic boat if an F16 compliant boat is chosen? Get real. Do you think that most F16 owners have any reasonable desire or chance to compete in the Olympics? Absolutely not.


Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
(lord knows you have your own quirky view of the world)

You still don't get it. The F16 class enjoys its unique characteristics and you are missing out on the fun.


Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The Tornado class sailors finally choose to get in line with the changes BECAUSE THEY KNEW THEY WOULD DIE A QUICK DEATH IF THEY DID NOT...

You would have F16 (1 up and 2up racing) and Olympic Viper (for example) racing... Olympic will have critical mass on the water..

I beg differ. There will be the Olympic circuit that most F16 sailors do not and should not have any part in other than to admire and help support. It is for 5-diamond sailors only. The rest of us mortals enjoy the fun and weekend racing. If an Olympic team elects to race with us, it is on our terms.


Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Time and money are limited... Tell me how the F16 class would be served if 5 of your 20 racers at tradewinds this year were spending their money two weeks later at the OCR's in 2013.

Yes. Time and money are limited resources for most of us. However, you keep forgetting that the F16 class is not being selected and you are presupposing that all F16 owners will flip their rides for an Olympic F16....Maybe you (former Tornado owner) but most of us are realistic about what the F16 class is and our desire to compete in Olympic level competition.


Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
The issue is not forcing the F16 class members to do something they don't want to... The issue is... can you have a viable F16 class when the top sailors race mixed multihull on a F16 flavor and so they don't really participate in F16 events.. You also have some non olympic F16 sailors with vipers who now can choose between two events... AND then you also compete for racers with the F18 and Hobie 16 class.

You really need to read and think about your arguement. Suppose it is a non-F16 flavor that is chosen? Would it be any different....NOT.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243172
01/27/12 04:03 PM
01/27/12 04:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Wouter: does the F16 class rules allow wings? Curved boards?
If they don't, a Viper with wing and curved boards would be my choice for the Olympics. A kite instead of the spi wouldn't hurt either.


Luiz
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Tom Whitehurst] #243173
01/27/12 04:12 PM
01/27/12 04:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by Tom Whitehurst
You're a little naive to think the F16 class rules will keep "Olympic Sailors" from making changes.

Tom, you have it a$$-backwards. It would be naive to think that changes to the F16 class rules would be enforcable on an Olympic boat. You are way off in your statement.

Once again, the F16 class is not being selected. It is the possibility of a currently F16 compliant boat being selected. There is a big difference.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Wouter] #243175
01/27/12 04:53 PM
01/27/12 04:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
addict
Kris Hathaway  Offline
addict

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Originally Posted by Wouter
I don't think the F16 class as a formula class is in any way likely to be selected. Mostly because I don't see any effort on that front to be slected, just as the F18 class is not actively seeking selection.

Broken record.....The F16 class is not a boat. It is a rule set for boats to comply with. There is no provision in the selection criteria for a formula class to be chosen. However, that does not preclude a formula class compliant boat from being selected.

Even with the tighest of rules do I think an open manufacturers' boat or formula class would even be considered today. The desire is to remove the boat as a variable in the podium standings.

I've voiced the opinion that it would be great to do it a la Alter Cup style (at least for the final rounds) but it has been voiced to me that this concept is blaphemy to the Olympic campaigner which I can respect given the inordinate amount of time that a team puts into knowing and preparing "their" boat.


Kris Hathaway
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Timbo] #243176
01/27/12 05:29 PM
01/27/12 05:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by Timbo
So...you think the F18 is "...just too big and heavy as a consideration as a mixed crew."


Yup

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Kris Hathaway] #243177
01/27/12 05:36 PM
01/27/12 05:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Kris,

That is what I meant to say.

F16 class is NOT under evaluation, just one of the individual makes.

You and I are in fact saying the same.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Will_R] #243178
01/27/12 05:38 PM
01/27/12 05:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline
veteran

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
I tell my wife that all the time when we race together on our F-18.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243179
01/27/12 06:46 PM
01/27/12 06:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
daniel_t Offline
enthusiast
daniel_t  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
One thing I got from Mark Schneider's position is this... If the Viper (or Falcon or any other F-16 compliant boat) were chosen, what would happen to the F16 Nationals? Would it even be worth it for us part-timers to enter when the event is filled with olympic hopefuls?


Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243180
01/27/12 07:01 PM
01/27/12 07:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline
veteran

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
The Phantom with Curved board will not be competing for the olympic bid.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: daniel_t] #243182
01/27/12 07:29 PM
01/27/12 07:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by daniel_t
One thing I got from Mark Schneider's position is this... If the Viper (or Falcon or any other F-16 compliant boat) were chosen, what would happen to the F16 Nationals? Would it even be worth it for us part-timers to enter when the event is filled with olympic hopefuls?


What difference would it make? It is certainly the only chance I'd ever have to be on the same course as Olympic level sailors.

Last edited by pgp; 01/27/12 07:36 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243184
01/28/12 08:23 AM
01/28/12 08:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 18
Pensacola Florida
T
Tom Whitehurst Offline
stranger
Tom Whitehurst  Offline
stranger
T

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 18
Pensacola Florida
It would be nice to see from ISAF who has submitted what at this point.

http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/01/olympics-phantom-project-is-out-of.html


Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Tom Whitehurst] #243185
01/28/12 08:31 AM
01/28/12 08:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
Originally Posted by Tom Whitehurst
It would be nice to see from ISAF who has submitted what at this point.

http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/01/olympics-phantom-project-is-out-of.html



From the link above:

"...crew weight targets which are clearly not in line with real world data and experience."

Anyone know what the crew weight targets are?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pgp] #243186
01/28/12 08:43 AM
01/28/12 08:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by Tom Whitehurst
It would be nice to see from ISAF who has submitted what at this point.

http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/01/olympics-phantom-project-is-out-of.html



From the link above:

"...crew weight targets which are clearly not in line with real world data and experience."

Anyone know what the crew weight targets are?


120-140 kg


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243187
01/28/12 08:59 AM
01/28/12 08:59 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
265-305lbs seems reasonable.
As an example, I'm 6'-2", ~160lbs. By American standards I'm a twig for my height, but consider myself to have an athletic build.
I'd need a female skipper in the weight range of 105-145lbs. Neither of the extremes is out of the question I think.


I'm boatless.
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243188
01/28/12 09:08 AM
01/28/12 09:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
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Posts: 5,525
I'm not quite following the need for an upper limit. IIRC, the current Alter Cup champions were 345 lbs for that competition.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Karl_Brogger] #243189
01/28/12 09:10 AM
01/28/12 09:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,223
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Posts: 3,223
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger

but consider myself to have an athletic build.


You also consider yourself intelligent and quick witted...just sayin'.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
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