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Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pgp] #243190
01/28/12 10:20 AM
01/28/12 10:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
I'm not quite following the need for an upper limit. IIRC, the current Alter Cup champions were 345 lbs for that competition.


The weight given by ISAF was just a guideline for designers. The boat will not have an upper limit, but you will certainly see teams converge to an optimal weight for whatever boat is chosen.


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243191
01/28/12 10:32 AM
01/28/12 10:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Most of the sailing world is unaware how powerful the F16s are. Light teams will have a tough time being competitive in winds over 18knots.

305 seems to be optimal but note the 345 cited above.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Kris Hathaway] #243195
01/28/12 02:02 PM
01/28/12 02:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Kris

Quote
Yes. Time and money are limited resources for most of us. However, you keep forgetting that the F16 class is not being selected and you are presupposing that all F16 owners will flip their rides for an Olympic F16....Maybe you (former Tornado owner) but most of us are realistic about what the F16 class is and our desire to compete in Olympic level competition.


My fundamental argument is that splintering a racing class by having two flavors of equipment in the class in play is a problem.

When you look at buying into a racing class you look at two related issues.. How many races are there for you to compete in.. where are these races and what is the critical mass of sailors at each event. The second issue... What is the competition in the class like and do I fit in.

You acknowledge the second point by noting that in your opinion many F16 sailors will not be vying for the Olympics and won't be attending the Olympic F16 XXX mixed multi events like the Miami OCRsd even if they had the boat. Many will not try the 5 diamond trail!

What is the effect splintering has on critical mass turnout for the two types of equipment? The Olympic mixed mulithull sailors will have a critical mass and all competitors will be on the same page "compete in Olympics". Competition will be keen. They won't be at F16 events because the competition will not be there for them. (granted... Probably not a loss to F16 class turnout )

What happens to the F16 class critical mass??.. The olympic sailors won't be there... How many core F16 sailors at the top of the fleet want to stick a toe into the Olympic pool and sail against these top olympic sailors... Since they have a mixed mulithull compliant boat... They may want to play in the silver fleet just for the competition. And time and money makes this their NA experience of the year. The effect on F16 turnout could be huge since the fleets are small (20 boats). IMO the potential bleeding off of the top of the fleet to the mixed multi F16 will hurt the critical mass of F16 sailors more then just a few boats.. If the top three sailors pass on the F16 event for the mixed multihull event... does turnout suffer beyond the loss of three boats? I notice that the PR campaign leading up to a NA's or mid winters is all about how many of the top dogs are racing and how big the party will be. IMO, without the top guns... attendance suffers. The three boats you lose to mixed are the WRONG three boats to lose. Will you travel a big distance if the turnout and competition appear to drop off. Of course, at the club level it won't matter.

My hope is that the committee leaves the F16 and F18 classes alone and creates a new Olympic class with their selection.

For example, Take a Viper and put curved foils in her (along with an upgrade kit of foils and cases for the existing vipers world wide). This Olympic Viper will clearly not be an F16 boat at that point. the Nacra 17 is a completely new boat with no class to effect.

What impact would selection have on the other classes

per the blog
http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2012/01/olympics-phantom-project-is-out-of.html

Realize... these submissions by and large are NOT from classes that voted to be Olympic (except for Roland and the T) ... rather... the builders are making a calculated economic decision... Is it good for the class or CLASS of sailors who race these boats??. Do the builders even give a damn about the Class opinion.

Hobie is going with the Hobie 16 and the Tiger.
The H 16 class is huge... they assume the class will function much like the Laser with few problems.
Tiger, the F18 class is not pleased but can't do much about it. Leveraging the existing F18 racing is good for Hobie and the long in the tooth Tiger class.... perhaps not so good for the F18 Class.

AHPC with the Viper
Nacra with the 17' and the 16"


IMO the F16 flavors are issues for the F16 class...because the F16 class is so much smaller then Hobie 16's or F18s.

New olympic classes like the Nacra 17 or a fantasy Viper with curved foils would not bother F16's.

Loday & White with the Spitfire S
Gabler with the old Tornado.


These are essentially two small regional classes (Brits and Germans) who might love to be Olympic (certainly a blast from the past for the T).

Based on our conversation with Dina (ISAF technical committe) I think cost, weight range and ability to hit the water with international competition by summer 2012 are the key selection factors after an acceptable sailing performance. I did not get a sense that the impact on the existing classes mattered all that much. IMO... it should be a factor!




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Timbo] #243206
01/29/12 09:01 AM
01/29/12 09:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 18
Pensacola Florida
T
Tom Whitehurst Offline
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Pensacola Florida
F18 too big and heavy. Yep

The real question is what rig is Nacra putting on the 17. If its an F18 rig than not a good idea for a mixed crew.


Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Tom Whitehurst] #243207
01/29/12 12:13 PM
01/29/12 12:13 PM
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NacramanUK Offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Whitehurst
F18 too big and heavy. Yep

The real question is what rig is Nacra putting on the 17. If its an F18 rig than not a good idea for a mixed crew.



Nacra 17 will have a 2 part carbon mast with a scaled down F20 Carbon sail plan.

But as a matter of interest and argument why do you believe an F18 rig is not suitable for an Olympic mixed team? I am ready for a row about this!

Last edited by NacramanUK; 01/29/12 12:26 PM.
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243213
01/29/12 05:27 PM
01/29/12 05:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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F18 rig wouldn't have the loads on a lighter boat like it does on a F18. That would be one powered up mofo though!


I'm boatless.
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243234
01/30/12 09:16 AM
01/30/12 09:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
I wonder how many H16s an Olympic contender might go thru in an Olympic bid. 2,3,4 and of course a new one for the trials and the games. Not very cost effective but great for the second hand market.

What ever they select will have to stand up to a great deal more sailing then any of the current boats(with the exception of the Tornado) currently cycle thru.

I think this will be the biggest test for the selected boat.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: NacramanUK] #243249
01/30/12 12:45 PM
01/30/12 12:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by NacramanUK
Originally Posted by Tom Whitehurst
F18 too big and heavy. Yep

The real question is what rig is Nacra putting on the 17. If its an F18 rig than not a good idea for a mixed crew.



Nacra 17 will have a 2 part carbon mast with a scaled down F20 Carbon sail plan.

But as a matter of interest and argument why do you believe an F18 rig is not suitable for an Olympic mixed team? I am ready for a row about this!


I'd argue a different point. "It's just too big and heavy" not for mixed crews, but just in general. The T is 155kg, the F18 is 180kg, ~25% lighter.

If it's supposed to be a "pinnacle" event, put a fast boat out there. How long did the T reign supreme? I don't think that the Star or some of the other monos that are in the Olympics are good representations of the sailing world outside of the games. We've all moved on to faster/better platforms. Popular as the F18 may be, this boat should be leading, not following. If you want more television coverage, more sponsors, more sailors, more events; you have to pick a hot platform, not just b/c it's popular with the sailors.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Will_R] #243253
01/30/12 01:54 PM
01/30/12 01:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
I don't think that the Star or some of the other monos that are in the Olympics are good representations of the sailing world outside of the games


True... but there is overwhelming support from the mna's for these boats. Representation of the sailing universe is not a goal... they tossed Keel boats from the games. enough said about popularity. This debate is settled.

The "PINNACLE" is about the event... not the boat... The event is single handed men's dinghy... not laser. The event is mixed multihull. (granted it's a new pinnacle but that is the cross we carry! More the point... it's settled)

Quote
If you want more television coverage, more sponsors, more sailors, more events; you have to pick a hot platform


Nope... that is a pipe dream.... What boat is faster, hotter, cooler then an AC45 right now...Raced by the biggest pro names in the sport. Yet, they can't break through on TV yet..

NBC/ESPN markets Olympic stories of sacrifice, victory over the hurdles, the human spirt.... Nobody cares about the boat type... Hell... nobody cares about the HORSE in the jumping competition... and I put my money on the HORSE as the big factor in that competition. The public only cares about our guys representing our nation winning gold.

IMO, we are best served with a boat that you can have 50 boats on the line by this summers end. (first)

A boat that woman have a shot at being the sheet hand as well as helm. (second)

A boat that the asian countries can fit their talent on and be competitive out of the box. (third)

Don't muck up an existing amateur class... (fourth)

YMMV


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Mark Schneider] #243291
01/31/12 11:03 AM
01/31/12 11:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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and all the sailors need to have very compelling stories/backgrounds for the marketing arm of the Olympics, right?


Jay

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #243303
01/31/12 01:26 PM
01/31/12 01:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Right.... in mixed multihull.... PREGNANT will be Priceless.

If we could arrange the reality TV so that dad is from another country... World wide spectacle of human interest.

(and you think a flashy boat is all that's needed.... THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX MAN!)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: Mark Schneider] #243305
01/31/12 02:45 PM
01/31/12 02:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
or the father is the flying spaghetti monster?


Jay

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243574
02/05/12 02:45 PM
02/05/12 02:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
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Has Nacra built a Nacra 17 for the trials?


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: windswept] #243575
02/05/12 03:03 PM
02/05/12 03:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
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NacramanUK Offline
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Originally Posted by windswept
Has Nacra built a Nacra 17 for the trials?


Yep, all new 17'6" boat with glass,carbon and epoxy hulls, 2 part carbon mast and curved daggerboards. 130kg all up weight......

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: NacramanUK] #243576
02/05/12 03:15 PM
02/05/12 03:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Get some rules setup as F17 along the lines of the F16's rules and you would be surprised just how quickly the F18 dominance will be over.

Who wants to push another 50 kilos of outdated boat up and down the slipways when you could have the latest up to date toys to play with. cool

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243579
02/05/12 08:59 PM
02/05/12 08:59 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
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If that was the case everyone would already be sailing f18ht

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: ] #243580
02/05/12 09:50 PM
02/05/12 09:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 36
G
Gav F18 Offline
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+1

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243584
02/06/12 02:35 AM
02/06/12 02:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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TEAMVMG  Offline
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Posts: 1,203
uk
Why would Nacra go to the trouble of starting another formula, other manufacturers will jump on board and Nacra will have to develope a new model every few years to stay ahead

Surely is boat is destined to be a one design - especially if it gets selected


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: TEAMVMG] #243587
02/06/12 05:05 AM
02/06/12 05:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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Nacra are in the business to make and produce boats, at the moment the F18's are old hat and sales are slow. Create something modern and desiriable and a lot of the sailors who may have not thought about buying a new boat because their old boat is doing OK, may well open their check books.

Why would they set up a new F formulae, OD is not going to compete with the F18 setup, setup a formulae with boats people want to aspire to and that formulae may quickly take over generating lots of new sales, ask AHPC what numbers of Viper they sell versus the C2. Get in early and dominate the sales and your production increases dramatically, get in late and you get the scraps. Get in early and you set the rules to suit your production.

Manufacturers also under estimate the desire to modify to suit ones own needs, OD stifles this. The greatest pain for any dealer network is the manpower needed to supply spares and parts, in small business's you want to sell and move on,take the money and not have to deal with peoples problems. Get the design and reliability right first time and your staffing levels are dramatically lowered.

F16 is not for all crews, F18's are now outdated technology, perhaps its time for a new F17.5 class. Perhaps the T Class was a good pointer to this with its demise within only a few years of its dropping from the Olympics, it may have been a very good boat, but people like new design and fashion and so they went else where.

Another analogy perhaps is car production, why do you think new models are launched virtually every 2 years, to sell loads of new ones. With modern CNC production of moulds and the likes, the cat manufacturers are going to have to do the same and can do the same, just look at how short a design and production time it has taken for NACRA to produce the 17.5.

Re: New Nacra 17 [Re: pitchpoledave] #243588
02/06/12 05:14 AM
02/06/12 05:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
Wayne, where are you getting your sales figures from for F18?

I know for a fact that there is a waiting list for the Phantom, and from my direct contact with other manufacturers and builders the level of sales at this stage in the year is up from 2011 which was also up from 2010 and so on.

Also, the greatest GAIN (not pain as you claim) in the dealer network is supply of spares, the margins are excellent for spares and many dealers make more money on a boat after it is sold than they do on the initial sale.



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