From SA.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=132559&st=0

Interesting! Thanks for the link!

I saw this video about a month ago. Four boats, two going upwind, two going down. In each group, one is on port and the other is on starboard.

Who's at fault?

I've been following the discussion on SA. The guy who gets skewered had tacked onto starboard after going through the gate. Not something I'd do, rule or no rule.

He's not on starboard tack when he gets skewered - he's on port.

The boat that skewered him is on starboard.

To analyze this situation, try approaching it like a protest committee would. That is, start out by writing out all the facts of the incident. This is actually the hardest part of being on PC. A lot of protests hinge on exactly what facts are found. Also, different people will see the exact same event in very different ways - often giving completely different (and still completely honest) accounts.

Here's how I see this incident based solely on the video.


Facts:

Time 0: The very first frame shows boats rounding a leeward mark, leaving it to port. The video then switches to boats rounding a mark to starboard. This leads me to conclude that this incident happened at a leeward gate.

Time 1: At that point, it shows 4 boats - One going upwind on starboard tack (SU1), one going upwind on port tack (PU), one going downwind on starboard tack flying a red spinnnaker (SD/red), and one going downwind on port tack flying a black spinnaker (PD/black). Based on where I conjecture the mark to be, SD/red and PD/Black are outside the zone. PU is behind SU. PD/black and SD/red are overlapped and to windward of PU and SU. The boats converge and their relationships hold until 0:02 in the video.

Time 2: At 0:02, another boat, sailing upwind on starboard tack (SU2) to leeward of the others, enters the frame at the bottom. PD/black also turns downwind slightly.

Time 3: At 0:03, SU1 sails away from the other boats, towards the top of the frame. SD/red, now approximately 1 boatlength from PD/black, starts to turn downwind. PD/black holds course. PU bears away about 1/2 second after SD/red changes course.

Time 4: At 0:04, SD/red's boom changes sides. She is now on port tack, to windward of all the other boats. SD/red is on the edge of the zone. PD/black is outside the zone. The two are still overlapped.

Time 5: About 1/2 second later, SU2, sails past PU to leeward. PD/black lets her spinnaker flog. SD/red's spinnaker pole contacts the skipper of PU. The force of contact spins SD/red around ahead of and slightly to windward of PD/black. It is unknown if there is any damage or injury.

Time 6: At 0:05, SD/red and PU disconnect. PU rounds up and sails across SD/red's bow. PD/black douses her spinnaker, bears away slightly, and gains an overlap to leeward of SD/red. SD/red is two hull lengths from the mark. PD/black is three lengths away.

Time 7: The boats involved sail away from each other. PD/black rounds the mark inside of SD/red. SD/red sails past the mark while dousing and rounds after PD/black and one other boat.


Conclusions:

Time 1: SD/red must keep clear of SU under rule 11. PU must keep clear of SU and SD/red under rule 10. PD/black must keep clear of PU under rule 11 as well as SU and SD/red under rule 10. At this time, all boats do.

Time 2: PD/black's course change is inconsequential. SU2 must keep clear of SU1 under rule 12. The other boats must keep clear of SU2 under rules 10 or 11.

Time 3: Because PU and SU2 are leaving the mark, Rule 18 does not apply between them and SD/red and PD/black (see rule 18.1(c)). Rule 18.2(b) does not yet apply between SD/red and PD/black because the boats are outsize the zone (see rule 18.1). Rule 18.4 does not apply because SD/red is not the inside boat. The relationship between PD/black and SD/red is governed simply by rule 10 - and PD/black is required to keep clear of SD/red. SD/red takes avoiding action (bearing away and then gybing). Therefore PD/black breaks rule 10.

Time 4: SD/red is now on port tack to windward of PD/black. SD/red must keep clear of PD/black and PU under rule 11. Because PD/black and PU gained right-of-way as a result of SD/red's action, they are not required to give SD/red room to keep clear under rule 15. SD/red must give PD/black mark-room under rule 18.2(b).

Time 5: SD/red does not keep clear of PU. SD/red breaks rules 11 and 14. Because it was not reasonably possible for PU to avoid contact (she bore away as SD/red was changing course), PU does not break rule 14.

Time 6-7: SD/red gives PD/black mark-room. No further rules are broken. SU1 and SU2 never took avoiding action.


Decision:

Assuming no on-the-water penalties were taken, PD/black is disqualified for breaking rule 10. Because SD/red was compelled to break rules 11 and 14 as a result of PD/black's illegal action, SD/red is exonerated under rule 64.1(c).

I hope that helps,
Eric

Nothing about PU sailing through this very busy area at the gate?

Legal or not, one poster on SA says it is a good way to become "hated".

It is difficult for me to think SD/red carries no penalty for nearly skewering PU.

Eric,

Because of the speed of these boats I've heard it argued that the zone can change and become 4 or even 5 boat lengths in this weather condition and at this speed.

For that reason I find that SD/red had to jibe to keep clear of PU/black. SD/red made a sudden move to windward and contacted the skipper of PU. PU was also leeward boat of SD/red. Therefore I would find SD/red solely at fault for not keeping clear of leeward boat.

Just my opinion.

Double post

Hey Eric,

With the benefit of video (and pause), I see some potential flaws with your facts found at Time 4. To me, it looks like when SD/red gybed, she was not in the zone (defined as when the HULL reaches the zone of three HULL lengths). When I looked at the video and paused it, it looked to me (especially at 0:07 when zoomed out to see the mark), the gybe occured outside the zone (looking at the wakes), and PD/black was never overlapped inside of SP/red prior to the collision (and SD/red entering the zone). These boats have long poles, so it makes them look longer than they actually are.

Having said that, I don't know how easy it would be to get to that conclusing in a real hearing, without the video. Witness testimony may or may not have helped with the speeds involved.

I don't agree with PD/black breaking RRS 10, at all. PD/black was coming in hot on the layline (probably overstood), and SD/red gybed to round the mark (proper course). Had she continued on STBD and forced PD/black to gybe, that would be a different question, and may have caused a RRS 17 issue, and almost certainly would have brought SU2 into the discussion.

Said another way, I think that in the absence of PD/black, SD/red would have gybed there anyway (or perhaps sooner).

The only thing that PD/black did wrong was to then come into the zone and round inside of SD/red without rights (I maintain that PD/black did not have inside overlap when S/D red's hull hit the zone); although the room may have been freely given, since SD/red was probably dealing with the trauma of the collision.

I think that SD/red gets DSQ for RRS 11, and it probably stops there.

Mike

Mike,

I am failing to see, even with a 5-length zone, that black was overlapped inside of red.

Mike

Please don't post something about somebody getting skewered, and nobody actually gets skewered.

I clicked all hyped up to see a tackline hanging out of a belly button.

Sorry. Close though.

From SA:

http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com/

http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com/2012/02/score-2701-in-ltw-2012-winter-challenge.html

Looks like he got smacked in the face, actually...

Mike

The rounding is to starboard on the left hand mark of a gate. Red and black were overlapped from the time red jibed on to starboard (way, way back).

This situation happens in catamarans all the time - except for the skewering part.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree that black did not break RRS 10 - red was going to jibe there anyway. They just misjudged the distance between their prod and the UP boat. DSQ Red - RRS 16.1 and 14. UP entitled to redress (assuming injury) - RRS 62.1(b )

I know where the incident occured in relation to the gate. Go back to my post on the previous page, with slo-mo and freeze-frame, I see this as when they got to the gate, black was not inside red (was not between red and the mark).

Looking upwind from the mark boat: If red were coming in from the right side of the left gate mark (and black were coming from the left, as in the video), then I can see black being inside. But, because they are both to the left of the left gate mark, I don't think black can be called inside. Is there a case or other citation to clarify this?

Either way, with a 3-length zone, I think red broke the overlap before her hull came into the zone.

To me, with the video evidence, 16.1 doesn't apply, as red was on port tack when contact occurred, therefore W/L, RRS 11. Obviously, this happened immediately before contact was made, and without the video, it may have been tough to prove this, so I could see 16.1 being used.

As for the discussion about PU showing poor form, I'm not so sure. True, it's not a winning move in traffic (she only has rights on windward port boats, and will be give-way to all starboard boats), but there's a decent chance that the left gate mark was favored to offset a right-favored course (PRO in me). In that case, the best move is to round the favored mark, tack and head to the favored side of the course.

There could have been a variety of other factors as well (buried to leeward of another boat after rounding, forced by traffic at the gate to the left mark when he wanted to be on the right side of the course, etc.).

Mike

There's more to the story, according to SA...

Seems that PU was actually coming down to the gate (not heading back up to weather). Who knows if you can actually believe that the guy who posted was really on the PU boat as he claims, but the wake in the wide shot does show a track for him coming down from the left side, then heading up to avoid the SU boat(s).

Mike

Sailing Instructions may change the size of the zone from three boatlengths to two or four (but not five). See RRS 86.1(b). I've heard rumors that SI's will no longer be able to change the zone size in the upcoming rules. Lacking any information about this regatta other than the video, I assume the default zone size.


As I said, different people will see the same incident differently. It looks to me like SD/red reaches the zone at the completion of her gybe. The two were overlapped before the gybe, overlap was broken after the gybe, and reestablished shortly again. For the analysis of this incident, however, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that she began turning while she and PD/black were outside the zone.

SD/red began her turndown about one boatlength from PD/black. Had SD/red held her course, I don't think PD/black could have avoided contact. Therefore, I see SD/red's gybe as "avoiding action". "Proper course" isn't an issue here as neither Rule 17 nor 18.4 apply. If PD/black hadn't been there, would SD/red still have gybed into PU? If I were SD/red, I wouldn't. I'd sail on an extra 1/2 boatlength and gybe behind PU. There's no upside to giving up right-of-way into or immediately in front of another boat.

Since we don't know how overlap was established, and there's no indication that any boat sailed above her proper course rule 17 does not apply.

If we say that SD/red was clear ahead at the zone (and therefore did not owe PD/black mark-room), nothing really changes. SD/red doused late (after recovering from the collision) and rounded very wide. PD/black and another boat took that opportunity to round inside. Room freely given may be freely taken.



Rule 18 doesn't apply until boats reach the zone (although boats sometimes have to act prior to that in order to satsify rule 18). See RRS 18.1. I also think that SD/red and PD/black reached the zone after SD/red's gybe, so in this instance, "inside" doesn't have meaning at the time are on opposite tacks. In the general case, however, if boats reach the zone on opposite tacks, then the inside boat is the one on the side on which they must leave the mark.

As to whether or not the boats were overlapped when the first one reached the zone, the onus of proof is on SD/red. Rule 18.2(d) states "if there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not".

Actually, because PU changes course before SD/red completes her gybe, I think that SD/red broke rule 16.1 as well as rule 11. I didn't list it earlier becuse I didn't want to overcomplicate the incident.



I wondered about the wake, but I don't think it makes much difference. If PU was headed for the left gate mark (as SD/red and PD/black were), then she would be entitled to mark-room. Why then, was she sailing away from the mark? Neither of those boats prevented her from sailing "to the mark". If PU was heading to the other gate mark, then rule 18 does not apply to her. Either way, the rest of the analysis is the same.

I think we agree that SD/red broke rule 16.1 or 11 (or both), and most likely 14. Whether or not PD/black broke rule 10 hinges on whether you think SD/red's gybe was purposeful, or avoiding action. If you feel that PD/black broke rule 10 and compelled SD/red to gybe into PU, then SD/red is exonerated. If not, then she is penalized. These are difficult judgement calls, and small changes in the facts found can swing them one way or the other. Given the proximity of SD/red and PD/black at the time of SD/red's gybe, I believe that PC would most likely penalize PD/black and exonerate SD/red.

Regards,
Eric
US SAILING Certified Judge
Member Area D Appeals Committee

I know judges can break this down and come to a decision. If I had to make the decision it would not sit well with me. I have a real empathy for these skippers and crews and the skill it takes to make these split second decisions.

As fast as these boats look our cats with chutes are even faster. It's really hard to make the right call yet still be aggressive and safe. Definitely a balancing act.

I definitely find red chute at fault because he came up and hit the guy suddently. He could have kept his boat deep and slowed just a bit. Between red and black is a harder call for me. If not in the zone then black should have been at least looking like a gybe was in the works. For that reason I would toss black chute. I'd also toss red chute for not avoiding contact or hitting a leeward boat.

Thanks Eric.

The reason the inside overlap between black and red matters is that will involve RRS 18. If there is no inside overlap, RRS 18 is not in play.

"If PD/black hadn't been there, would SD/red still have gybed into PU?"

Obviously, I didn't say that. I think red probably just misjudged her turn and/or speed of PU. She may also not have seen SU2 until her gybe was initiated, then was trying to thread that needle (and failed).

Mike, this is just part of the game. You want to sail a fast boat, you better be able to plan, think (and maneuver) fast.

Matt has mentioned this before: All things being equal, the best (most ROW) course into a gate is coming from the right, on starboard, and rounding the right gate. This case is a priceless example of how things can go bad when a bunch of boats have very little ROW to start with.

Mike