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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245825
03/20/12 09:29 AM
03/20/12 09:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245827
03/20/12 10:46 AM
03/20/12 10:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Thanks for that Macca.
So the rule to keep a minimum weight is keeping costs up?


In a word: Yes.

We can build a very stiff F18 for less money if the total boat weight was 166kg. But with the rules being at 180kg, we just build a super stiff F18 for a bit more $.



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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: macca] #245828
03/20/12 11:01 AM
03/20/12 11:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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How long would it stay stiff?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245829
03/20/12 11:12 AM
03/20/12 11:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I'll let you guys in on a few secrets.

1. There isn't much mark up in boats.
2. They actually cost next nothing to make
3. Most of the profits are used to directly fund global terrorism
4. The rest of the profits are used by secret societies to keep things like the JFK assassination and moon landing under wraps.

So only the first one is true, but I kinda like pulling conspiracy theories outta my butt.


I'm boatless.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245830
03/20/12 11:16 AM
03/20/12 11:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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So, if catamaran sales fund Terrorism, does that mean that Jet Ski sales fund the Global War on Terrorism?

From what I have seen here on my lake, most of the Jet Skis are being driving by....TERRORISTS!!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: David Ingram] #245831
03/20/12 11:25 AM
03/20/12 11:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by David Ingram
How long would it stay stiff?


depends on how many blue pills you take smile

but seriously, the general laminate on our boats is so over specced (we use foam that is almost twice as thick as the big builders) that the boats are quite unstressed. We can do this because each boat is built carefully by highly skilled people and there is no mess left inside the hulls and the joins etc are all carefully prepared and finished. In the 166kg build there is really not much difference in the overall laminate. We just put more in there because we had to get the weight up!

I'm not saying that I want the weight to change for the class (i'm in enough trouble with the class already!!) but if we want to reduce cost and improve the longevity of the boats there are some solutions out there.


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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245832
03/20/12 11:25 AM
03/20/12 11:25 AM
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pgp Offline
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To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.

Sure, I'm gullible.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Timbo] #245833
03/20/12 11:27 AM
03/20/12 11:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
From what I have seen here on my lake, most of the Jet Skis are being driving by....TERRORISTS!!


No, those are probably just teenagers.

Or, guys that can't afford real power boats and don't have the intelligence to sail a boat...

Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #245834
03/20/12 11:33 AM
03/20/12 11:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe

Exploder Tornado for € 15.900 ?

Well, that is not going to be the same as a Marstrom we have come to know over the last 20 years. So I don't understand what Roland is getting at other then trying to confuse the quality of a carbon masted Marstrom with the price of an alu masted Hobie 16 with spi upgrade kit.

We all know that that is rather going to be the other way around. When that happens you basically got an outdated design (hull and boards) with a rig that can easily be put on the other boats as well in the way of costs and performance. Or does anyone really believe that a F16 carbon rig will be more expensive then the larger Tornado carbon rig ?

In my view Roland has become a bit unhinged lately.

Wouter





Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #245835
03/20/12 11:57 AM
03/20/12 11:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
I'll let you guys in on a few secrets.

1. There isn't much mark up in boats.
2. They actually cost next nothing to make
3. Most of the profits are used to directly fund global terrorism
4. The rest of the profits are used by secret societies to keep things like the JFK assassination and moon landing under wraps.

So only the first one is true, but I kinda like pulling conspiracy theories outta my butt.


Now you must die. You have violated the law of the sacred order of catamaran exploiters. Ignore the black helicopters and the men outside your windows. Your termination will be swift and painless.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: pgp] #245836
03/20/12 12:05 PM
03/20/12 12:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by pgp
To build a stiff F18 you need to lower class weight.
To build a stiff F16 you need to increase class weight.

Sure, I'm gullible.


No, you just struggle to understand the written word sometimes smile

To make it simple for you:-

F18 costs can come down with lower weight
F16 costs can come down with higher weight

Whilst the above statements seem contradictory, it all makes sense when you apply logic, it doesn't take a degree in composite engineering to understand that there are weight/cost/stiffness implications if you are too far skewed with one of the three factors above.


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Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #245837
03/20/12 12:09 PM
03/20/12 12:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
I think the comparison to the Melges 24 is valid. But you have to take more than the cost of the boat into consideration. Both boats are high performance race boats. Both classes are deep with very talented sailors. Both classes have active schedules and North American championships with great attendance levels (althought the M24 numbers have dropped off recentley). With all that in mind, which class is the better bargain? Travel to a M24 regatta, and bring your 4 crew along with you, that's gonna be expensive. Want new sails for that regatta, better take out a second mortgage on your house.

Granted neither boat is cheap by any means, but the bang-for-the-buck factor that the F18 offeres is second to none!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245838
03/20/12 01:02 PM
03/20/12 01:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
A new set of F16/18 sails is about $4k? (shot from the hip, I didn't look)

How much are M24 sails?!


I'm boatless.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245839
03/20/12 01:04 PM
03/20/12 01:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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Posts: 712
Coming from someone who owns and has been actively campaigning M24's and F18's for over 10 years. I can tell you that Karl is spot on the costs of running each campaign. One week racing the M24 at Key West, Miami, or Annapolis costs more than my annual F18 budget. The only F18 event that comes close in cost is the Tybee 500...

A set of M24 sails is about $6,500, and they have less than 1/2 the life of F18 sails.

Last edited by mikekrantz; 03/20/12 01:05 PM.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mikekrantz] #245840
03/20/12 01:19 PM
03/20/12 01:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
A set of M24 sails is about $6,500, and they have less than 1/2 the life of F18 sails.


Holy crap.


I'm boatless.
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245842
03/20/12 01:33 PM
03/20/12 01:33 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Back in 2007, I was calling the line on the pin boat for the Melges 32 Nationals in Newport. Someone on the boat made the comment that all the competitors had new sails for that event, and that a set of sails (I think just main and jib) cost $16,000 at that time.

My response: I can buy two whole boats for that (Hobie 16 at the time)!!!

Granted, a 32 carries much larger sails than a 24, but WOW...

Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245843
03/20/12 01:38 PM
03/20/12 01:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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mikekrantz  Offline
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Posts: 712
Since the M32's have switched over to carbon sails, the main/jib combo is over $20k.

Thank god, the M24's are still limited to aramid or dacron sail cloth.

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: brucat] #245846
03/20/12 02:00 PM
03/20/12 02:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
Originally Posted by brucat
Back in 2007, I was calling the line on the pin boat for the Melges 32 Nationals in Newport. Someone on the boat made the comment that all the competitors had new sails for that event, and that a set of sails (I think just main and jib) cost $16,000 at that time.

My response: I can buy two whole boats for that (Hobie 16 at the time)!!!

Granted, a 32 carries much larger sails than a 24, but WOW...

Mike


Not true!! I was crewing on the one boat that didn't have new sails... and we got destroyed!


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245847
03/20/12 02:48 PM
03/20/12 02:48 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Thanks for the laugh Jeff!

Was it really the sails???

Reminds me of Al Bundy: "It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's the fat that makes you look fat..."

wink

Mike

Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150] #245848
03/20/12 02:53 PM
03/20/12 02:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Boston, Ma
No, it wasn't the sails at all. I was sailing with a group from Cleveland (home) that owned the boat to sail as a family. It was a really great group, but the helmsman was in his seventies, and we just weren't competitive with the pros. Great racing though, and I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to race with such a passionate group.


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Nacra Infusion USA 753
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