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Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: John Williams] #245893
03/21/12 11:06 AM
03/21/12 11:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
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Jeff.Dusek Offline
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I read the updates to mean that the Nacra 17 was first across the line with the Viper second in the first race. Not sure which boat won the second race, sounds like Viper won the third.

I don't think, however, that the race results say too much about the designs. It is pretty clear that the level of sailor on the boat makes a tremendous difference, and not all the sailors at the trials are equal. Sarah and Matt have spent tons of time on a Viper, and I think the results above reflect that. Unfortunately, I don't think the full finishing order will be released.


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Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: Wouter] #245894
03/21/12 11:25 AM
03/21/12 11:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Why have a PR machine if you can't use it...

I think the Marstrom M20 got all of the noise relative to the Tornado the last time we did this kind of thing.

This is not a race... This is not a handicap race... This is an information gathering exercise...

Again...What do we not know about these boats... Only the F17 is new.... How magical do you think the C boards are???

Have the conditions in Spain conclusively shown this magic???

Hype is a mild way to describe the noise... It almost certainly leads to... "Those Idiots at ISAF... screwed it up again... They were biased against __________ did you not hear what the sailors are saying.... _________ is clearly BEST ... Why should we support these fools... Off with their heads!"

Last edited by Mark Schneider; 03/21/12 12:56 PM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: Mark Schneider] #245900
03/21/12 12:15 PM
03/21/12 12:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
This is not a race... This is not a handicap race... This is an information gathering exercise...


Bingo. I'd bet the H16 was pretty consistently at the bottom of the pile, yet is up there in likelihood of being selected.



Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
How magical do you think the C boards are???


Apparently not that magical anymore seeing as the AC boats are going to the "L" boards


I'm boatless.
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: Karl_Brogger] #245903
03/21/12 12:42 PM
03/21/12 12:42 PM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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"C" boards are a fad.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: John Williams] #245925
03/21/12 05:31 PM
03/21/12 05:31 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Could be? I don't know. Maybe everyone jumped the gun, and maybe they didn't.


I'm boatless.
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: David Ingram] #245931
03/21/12 09:22 PM
03/21/12 09:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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You have obviously never sailed a boat with them

Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: David Ingram] #245933
03/21/12 09:35 PM
03/21/12 09:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
"C" boards are a fad.


Just like the F-18. Oh yeah, and spinnakers and rudders are too.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #245947
03/22/12 09:00 AM
03/22/12 09:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by David Ingram
"C" boards are a fad.


Just like the F-18. Oh yeah, and spinnakers and rudders are too.


Geeze, I can see Dave not getting the joke (being Canadian and all) but Todd, really? My disappoint is... palpable.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: David Ingram] #245948
03/22/12 09:04 AM
03/22/12 09:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Yes I get the joke! eh?

But seriously C boards are a real step forward for cats.. My experience is that it makes a boat much easier to sail and lighter feeling especially at the limit.

Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: David Ingram] #245967
03/22/12 12:20 PM
03/22/12 12:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by David Ingram
"C" boards are a fad.


Just like the F-18. Oh yeah, and spinnakers and rudders are too.




Geeze, I can see Dave not getting the joke (being Canadian and all) but Todd, really? My disappoint is... palpable.



Heheheheh... he said Palpable.

You didn't use a smiley face and it wasn't really funny, so how would I know?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: pitchpoledave] #245972
03/22/12 12:46 PM
03/22/12 12:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by pitchpoledave
But seriously C boards are a real step forward for cats.. My experience is that it makes a boat much easier to sail and lighter feeling especially at the limit.


Do these boards make the optimal performance window more or less narrow than straight boards? I think the answer to this question may dictate how well it does in the recreational marketplace.

FYI I consider "recreational marketplace" those of us who like performance sailing but don't have any realistic expectation of getting to the pro level...


Jay

Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: waterbug_wpb] #245991
03/22/12 10:19 PM
03/22/12 10:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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I don't know but I suspect it does widen the weight range because the boat doesn't displace as much..Maybe Mike Krantz can chime in on that.

Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: pitchpoledave] #246175
03/26/12 03:49 PM
03/26/12 03:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I was foolish enough to place a posting about comparing the Nacra 17 to the Nacra F16 in the thread about the US multihull committee. Sorry about that.

This post did however receive some interesting replies and therefor I present a link that that thread here.

Nacra 17 to Nacra F16 comparisons

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Full foiling a catamaran [Re: Wouter] #246180
03/26/12 04:08 PM
03/26/12 04:08 PM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I was clearing out my archive of catamaran design topics and ran accross this paper. (BEWARE, it is a 13 MB download)

Paper on the non-foiling Alpha and foiling Rocker C-class cats when racing Patient lady 6 and Cogito

It is actually a good read and very insightful about foiling cats. I guess that this proofs Tim Bohans idea about lashing to Moths together and thus arrive at a full foiling cat with a leap in performance as outside of the realm of reality. Sorry Tim.

Basically the C-class contest tried to improve performance WITHIN a fixed rule base as indeed all the cats at the ISAD evaluation do. That Nacra 17 is pretty much a standard beach catamaran but fitted with partially lifting foils.

One of the more interesting questions is whether the Nacra 17 (or indeed nacra 20c) with curved foils is faster then the same designs with normal straight boards. Of course this question is not answered directlt by this paper, although both Cogito and Alpha used straight asymmetric daggers rather then curved foils as tried an earlier C-class competitor Patient lady ?? (I forgot which number this version had)

Most interesting fact in the paper was that Rocker proof just as competitive as Alpha ones the foils had been sawed off the boat. Auch ! That basically means that the performance of Rocker was actually held back by the lifting foils rather then being increased or stay the same.

I wonder what this says about (symmetrically) curved foiled cats. Afterall, Neither the Nacra 20C or the Nacra 17 has yet proven to perform beyond their Texel or ISAF handicap ratings. (i.e. Thai regatta and now the ISAF Olympic trials). Note that the Nacra 17 is rated the same as an F16 under SCHRS rating system (12 secs/hour quicker actually, but that is next to nothing)

Anyway, read the paper and make your own mind up.

Wouter


Last edited by Wouter; 03/26/12 04:19 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: John Williams] #246181
03/26/12 04:10 PM
03/26/12 04:10 PM

M
MarkMT
Unregistered
MarkMT
Unregistered
M



Maybe this has been answered somewhere else already, but I'm curious about whether all the boats sailed with the requested two piece mast.

A comment on AHPC's Facebook page noted that they were sailing in standard Viper configuration, which might be taken to mean a one piece mast, though I suspect that isn't what they meant.

Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: ] #246183
03/26/12 04:14 PM
03/26/12 04:14 PM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I only know that Darren Bundock admitted that he had ordered a two-piece carbon mast for the Viper as a measure to cover that base. Apparently, they decide not to use it on the trial boats (although there was a third Viper at the trials)

Maybe he brought one along, just in case, and mentioned it as an option in that panel discussion. Personally, I feel the two piece mast is a pointless requirement and it appears none of manufactorers are in favour of it even when they covered their bases as Darren did (nacra for example did)

Last edited by Wouter; 03/26/12 04:16 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: US Olympic Multihull Trials [Re: Wouter] #246193
03/26/12 05:12 PM
03/26/12 05:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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The dog that has not barked yet is the ISAF grade I schedule for the next cycle. We were told that they want to de emphasize Europe regattas as the path to a medal.. perhaps 2 grade I s in Europe. New qualification criteria.

So.. the need to box these boats up and ship to new continents and countries may be much greater in the future.

For instance... why is the America's Grade I ISAF event in Miami... given the games in Brazil... I would bet that ISAF moves those to a South American country....

The costs in shipping have probably been sorted out and presented in their presentations... BUT who knows... some factory teams reportedly showed up for a MIXED Trial with NO Women on their team... That's almost as good as the US sending a Mixed team to the MEN's ISAF World F18's championship.... (FAIL)

(What's so hard to understand about the word MIXED?)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Full foiling a catamaran [Re: Wouter] #246203
03/26/12 10:36 PM
03/26/12 10:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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S

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Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by Wouter
I was clearing out my archive of catamaran design topics and ran accross this paper. (BEWARE, it is a 13 MB download)

Paper on the non-foiling Alpha and foiling Rocker C-class cats when racing Patient lady 6 and Cogito

It is actually a good read and very insightful about foiling cats. I guess that this proofs Tim Bohans idea about lashing to Moths together and thus arrive at a full foiling cat with a leap in performance as outside of the realm of reality. Sorry Tim.

Basically the C-class contest tried to improve performance WITHIN a fixed rule base as indeed all the cats at the ISAD evaluation do. That Nacra 17 is pretty much a standard beach catamaran but fitted with partially lifting foils.

One of the more interesting questions is whether the Nacra 17 (or indeed nacra 20c) with curved foils is faster then the same designs with normal straight boards. Of course this question is not answered directlt by this paper, although both Cogito and Alpha used straight asymmetric daggers rather then curved foils as tried an earlier C-class competitor Patient lady ?? (I forgot which number this version had)

Most interesting fact in the paper was that Rocker proof just as competitive as Alpha ones the foils had been sawed off the boat. Auch ! That basically means that the performance of Rocker was actually held back by the lifting foils rather then being increased or stay the same.

I wonder what this says about (symmetrically) curved foiled cats. Afterall, Neither the Nacra 20C or the Nacra 17 has yet proven to perform beyond their Texel or ISAF handicap ratings. (i.e. Thai regatta and now the ISAF Olympic trials). Note that the Nacra 17 is rated the same as an F16 under SCHRS rating system (12 secs/hour quicker actually, but that is next to nothing)

Anyway, read the paper and make your own mind up.

Wouter



Nacra did extensive 2 boat testing during the F20c development and proved in-house that the curved foils were superior. Why else add an easy $1-$2K to the boat in a depressed economy? They are also here to stay in the A-Cat's. My general impression, from well outside both classes, is the curved foils aren't inherently faster upwind through beam reaching, but aren't slower on that point of sail. Downwind though they let the boat gybe through narrower angles, and if the sea state gets rough, make the boat easier to handle. There is still much to learn about there use and getting the maximum performance from a C-foil is more work than a straight board, that is inherent to the lifting nature of the design.

What I find interesting about these trials is the lack of Nacra F16 vs. Viper F16 data. Frankly, I don't believe a lick of information coming out of the event, it's all been spin doctored to death.

Last edited by samc99us; 03/26/12 10:37 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Full foiling a catamaran [Re: Wouter] #246209
03/27/12 03:19 AM
03/27/12 03:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
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Tony_F18 Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter

Neither the Nacra 20C or the Nacra 17 has yet proven to perform beyond their Texel or ISAF handicap ratings. (i.e. Thai regatta and now the ISAF Olympic trials). Note that the Nacra 17 is rated the same as an F16 under SCHRS rating system (12 secs/hour quicker actually, but that is next to nothing)

From what I hear the N20C's rating is quite soft so I'm not not too sure about that.
The N17 has not actually sailed any races yet but I would be surprised if it is slower then an F18, the foils might allow it to be pushed a bit harder in all conditions?

Re: Full foiling a catamaran [Re: Tony_F18] #246210
03/27/12 03:33 AM
03/27/12 03:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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of course, this is all subject to further on the water data.

However, what I find interesting about this article as a designer is the following conclusion.

Something that works so well in the moth doesn't work at all in C-class.

I mean we do similar reasoning all the time right. This and that works in the A-cats so it must also work for design X. Well, it appears that more often then not you can not transfer aspects of one design to another like that.

Another example, A wingsailobviously works in the C-class but doesn't in the A-cats. We saw that again a few years ago.

This article reminded me again of how easy it is to draw conclusions that will not hold up under proper testing or real life.

Last edited by Wouter; 03/27/12 03:42 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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