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Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247315
04/22/12 07:28 AM
04/22/12 07:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
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Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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Just double checked... I was at Miami OCR when the new container of 49ers came in, my friend said he paid 28k

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: wildtsail] #247316
04/22/12 07:37 AM
04/22/12 07:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 54
D
dr5e14w Offline
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Plus a new kite for that 49er runs in the order of 3k. Imagine if the prices for all the cats were the same. Everyone here would be ecstatic about the prices listed here. And thats first hand from an olympic medalist

Last edited by dr5e14w; 04/22/12 07:38 AM.
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247317
04/22/12 08:21 AM
04/22/12 08:21 AM
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Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Well I'm glad they chose something 'different', so to speak, and will now leave us weekend pogues alone, to race our 'cheap' boats.

I would have hated to see them choose an existing class and then start a new 'arms race'.

$28K for a 49'r?? What are they made out of?? Platinum?


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247321
04/22/12 09:11 AM
04/22/12 09:11 AM
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Nothing has been picked yet.


I'm boatless.
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247322
04/22/12 11:09 AM
04/22/12 11:09 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Well if 14 of the 17 evaluators liked the Nacra 17 best, what else would they pick?

I mean, why even have the "trials" if they aren't going to listen to the evaluators?


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Timbo] #247323
04/22/12 11:12 AM
04/22/12 11:12 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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remember the trials selected TWO candidates for the final selection. They didnn't ONLY select the nacra 17.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247324
04/22/12 11:22 AM
04/22/12 11:22 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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And...what else did they select?


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Timbo] #247325
04/22/12 11:27 AM
04/22/12 11:27 AM
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Why trials?.... because one new boat was created for the event. If you did not have a trial.... you would not shake the tree and have a new boat submitted. Half the world had never seen a spitfire... Most of the world had never seen a Nacra F16... Of course you need a trial. It produces data.

Now you get to evaluate the data and then make a judgement.

If you think the Sailing properties are the only factor... You must think that Hobie was CRAZY to put the Hobie 16 with spin into the trial. I don't think Hobie was crazy...

When ISAF tosses all Keel boats.... I think a fair read of the Tea Leaves is that MNA's want affordable Olympic boats. I bet they think "Elite Olympic Boat" is part of the problem... not the future. For example... do you think the LASER is an elite Olympic Boat.... or a boat sailed by elite Olympic Sailors?



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247329
04/22/12 11:55 AM
04/22/12 11:55 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Back when all this nonsense started, I said they should just choose the Hobie 16 and be done with it, for all the reasons you've mentioned Mark. Years ago, when the put the Laser in, I though, "They must be NUTZ!" but upon further reflection, I realized, in the Laser, the Sailor wins the regatta, not the boat.

That's why I supported the Hobie 16, less -go fast gadgets- on board means the sailors become more important, to make it go fast.

Oh, and it's available world wide, and the cheapest racing boat available.

NOW...the only draw back is, watching a bunch of Hobie 16's go downwind in 10kts. or less, is about as exciting (for the spectators) as mowing my lawn, so they need to pick a very windy venue for the regatta, if they want to 'thrill the crowd', so to speak.


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Timbo] #247331
04/22/12 12:58 PM
04/22/12 12:58 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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You are sort of making my key point.
ISAF has not stated exactly what the key feature is.

TV appeal? (Big... Bigger the better = Tornado
State of the art sailing catamaran? = F17 with curved boards
Laser equivalent. = Hobie 16
Modern design but affordable. (All of the F16 flavors and a Tiger)

My take home from the sailor reports is that ISAF gets to pick between these 4 philosophies. with the Viper coming out of the trials as the choice of the F16/F18 flavor.

Obviously they don't want to tell you what the top objective is... This Keeps the options open. On the other hand... the cat world will scream at the selection this way....


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Timbo] #247334
04/22/12 02:17 PM
04/22/12 02:17 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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The sailors proposed both the Nacra 17 AND the Viper F16

Last edited by Wouter; 04/22/12 02:17 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247335
04/22/12 02:18 PM
04/22/12 02:18 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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No matter what they choose, there will be bitching! I'm just glad there is a cat, any cat, is better than the Star!


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Mark Schneider] #247336
04/22/12 02:22 PM
04/22/12 02:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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TV appeal ? Both Viper and Nacra 17 will do.

State of the art cat sailing ? both Viper and Nacra 17 will do.

Laser equivalent ? Only then Hobie 16 will be that.

affordable ? Both the Hobie 16 (€12400) and Viper (€13.400) will be good candidates.


So what will we end up with as the final selection ?


The Viper F16 !


That will also be a good leg up for the all female event at later olympics.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Timbo] #247341
04/22/12 03:35 PM
04/22/12 03:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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New Hampshire, USA
Originally Posted by Timbo
Years ago, when the put the Laser in, I though, "They must be NUTZ!" but upon further reflection, I realized, in the Laser, the Sailor wins the regatta, not the boat.
Oh, and it's available world wide, and the cheapest racing boat available.

I think that you need to sit through a Laser Selection session. This is usually held in a place were you can look through 40-50 boats, 50-70 masts, a large selection of foils and about 100 sails. That is at least the one I sat through in MA about 10 years ago. It was held for 2-3 top sailors to select the boats-yes prural, that they would compete with that season. While a laser is a one-design boat, not all boats are made equal. Being able to select out the best does give you an edge. I do not know if this type of thing still happens today, but it did back then.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247342
04/22/12 04:01 PM
04/22/12 04:01 PM
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Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Oh I've heard the same things go on, on a much smaller scale, with Cats too. The dealer gets in a shipment and then they start weighing each hull before they put together a 'light' boat, or a 'stiff' boat, etc.

If they had 200 hulls to chose from, it would take them awhile, but I have no doubt an Olympic Hopefull would spend the time to get it right!

Personally, I'll spend that time on the beach, drinking.


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Wouter] #247343
04/22/12 04:17 PM
04/22/12 04:17 PM
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Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Kennethsf Offline
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Kennethsf  Offline
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The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Wouter
TV appeal ? Both Viper and Nacra 17 will do.

State of the art cat sailing ? both Viper and Nacra 17 will do.

Laser equivalent ? Only then Hobie 16 will be that.


affordable ? Both the Hobie 16 (€12400) and Viper (€13.400) will be good candidates.


So what will we end up with as the final selection ?





The Viper F16 !


That will also be a good leg up for the all female event at later olympics.


Nacra F16's is 13.250.....

Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: Kennethsf] #247344
04/22/12 04:40 PM
04/22/12 04:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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indeed and the nacra F16 was third in order of preference by the trial sailors.

However, that is also the quote for the first 100 boat sold and sold before nov 2012. After either limit is reached the price goes up.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247355
04/23/12 05:51 AM
04/23/12 05:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3
M
menno Offline
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menno  Offline
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M

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3
Hi all,

I see some communication about pricing and this is based on wrong info and it is a comparison between apples and pears.

The Nacra 17 price in aluminum mast is in MSRP € 16350,00 this is normally a price where you can buy this boat worldwide except country’s where you have big import duties! MSRP means manufacturer suggested retail price!
The Viper Price with aluminum mast is showing in the report for €13500,00 you still have to ship and import this boat out of AUS! I did some research about pricing of the Viper and found that you can buy this boat in Germany by an AHPC Dealer for € 16521,00! What is €3000 more than ISAF report and AHPC dealer pricing what is a big difference! This dealer price makes sense because an Nacra F16 is about the same price €16176!

If you want to compare both boats you have to put the same mast on each boat. ( Nacra 17 €14500 ex works NED and Viper €13400 ex works AUS !) If you look to dealer pricing you get Viper 16521 and Nacra 17 16350. All prices are with an aluminum mast and EX VAT!

Both boats where presented with a carbon mast so if ISAF wants carbon masts the price from the viper will go up 2000 euro ex works AUS!

http://www.lindstaedt.com/viper-f16.html
http://www.sailing.org/38217.php
http://www.nacrasailing.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=41%3Arace&id=183%3Anacra-17-qolympic-mixed-multihullq-&Itemid=27

Hope this helps to get a more fare communication!

Cheers Menno

Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247356
04/23/12 06:25 AM
04/23/12 06:25 AM

M
MarkMT
Unregistered
MarkMT
Unregistered
M



Thanks. Helpful to get that clarification.

Re: ISAF Multihull Evaluation Panel Report [Re: NacramanUK] #247357
04/23/12 06:46 AM
04/23/12 06:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
old hand
bacho  Offline
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Greenville SC
I personally do not see it as a problem that the price will go up, I view it more as a discount to try and get some orders quickly.

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