Announcements
New Discussions
Question about tiller extension uv joint
by JeffS. 12/09/19 12:35 AM
2020, The Year of The Cat
by cyberspeed. 11/26/19 09:47 PM
F16 Effect Crew Weight Solo and 2 Up
by 11devil11. 11/21/19 07:30 AM
Supercat 17s closest competitor?
by Will_R. 11/19/19 11:01 AM
New England 100 2019: 30th Anniversary!!!
by Timbo. 11/18/19 02:45 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
NACRA 17 into final stage for selection #247696
05/03/12 08:52 AM
05/03/12 08:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline OP
addict
catandahalf  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
After squeaking through the Equipment Committee by one vote, the NACRA 17 is in a race against the Viper 16 for the 'Council' vote.

I am guessing that is the collection of national ISAF delegates. Any one know for sure?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247697
05/03/12 09:06 AM
05/03/12 09:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
addict
Jeff.Dusek  Offline
addict
J

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
I sent this email to the F18 Eastern Area list:

All,

As many of you know, the equipment for the mixed multihull and women's skiff events will be selected this week at the ISAF mid-year meeting in Italy. In March, ISAF conducted an equipment trial for the candidate boats for both events, as well as an evaluation of the suitability of kiteboarding to be included in the Olympic program. Following that event, the evaluation committee published a report from the trials discussing the merits of each boat, and the remarks from the trials participants (sailors nominated from each MNA to attend the event and offer feedback). The reports from the trials can be found at the bottom of the page here: http://www.sailing.org/committees/2009-2012/26218.php

For the mixed multihull, the evaluation panel recommended the Nacra 17 and the AHPC Viper. Of the two the Nacra 17 received higher marks from the trials sailors, and was the first choice of the evaluation panel. For the women's skiff, the evaluation panel recommended the RS 900 and the Mackay FX (49er hull with smaller rig).

Earlier today, the ISAF Events committee held a vote on both the mixed multihull and women's skiff. The winners of that vote are then recommended to the full ISAF council which meets over the next two days. While being recommended by the event committee certainly carries weight, it is not binding and the full council has made surprising decisions in the past.

From the vote this morning, the events committee selected the Mackay FX with a strong majority for the women's skiff. For the mixed multihull, the Viper and Nacra 17 tied, with the committee chairman casting the tie-breaking vote in favor of the Nacra 17. Therefore the event committee recommendations are:

Women's skiff: Mackay FX
Mixed Multihull: Nacra 17

I will be watching the proceedings closely, and will send another update when a final decision has been made. Personally, I feel both the Viper and Nacra 17 are excellent, modern choices that will allow for competitive racing by mixed crews.

Best,
Jeff


USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #247698
05/03/12 09:35 AM
05/03/12 09:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Nice summary Jeff..

I would add that the evaluation panel judged all of the cats acceptable and recommended two boats. The skiff panel eliminated some boats from consideration. This recommendation was based on sailing properties.

The events committee vote is the first vote that considers all of the factors in selecting Olympic equipment that were speced out.

The council, of course, represents a broader range of views and that is the reason that the final outcome may differ from these recommendations.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #247699
05/03/12 09:36 AM
05/03/12 09:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by Jeff.Dusek


...the events committee selected... ...the Viper and Nacra 17 tied, with the committee chairman casting the tie-breaking vote in favor of the Nacra 17.



Thanks!!


Luiz
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Luiz] #247702
05/03/12 10:04 AM
05/03/12 10:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

source : http://www.facebook.com/pages/AHPC-Australian-High-Performance-Catamarans/10150116138925627

The ISAF meeting is underway.... And the latest news from Bundy:

"The events committee were very divided on the decision for Olympic Equipment for mixed Multihull.
Votes for Nacra 17 were 8
Votes for Viper were 8

Committee chairman gave casting vote to Nacra.

So it's still very close. It will be exciting tomorrow in Council for the final decision."


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247707
05/03/12 12:04 PM
05/03/12 12:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Have faith, the council will come up with something else...

Of course, I was completely wrong about the keelboat vote. Still in denial about that, actually...

Mike

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247756
05/04/12 09:34 AM
05/04/12 09:34 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
Final vote delayed till tomorrow following today's 19-14 decision on the women's skiff. Interesting that at 17,000 euro the Mackay FX they have selected is the most expensive of the boats evaluated and slightly more than the 16,750 cost of the first 100 Nacra 17s. OTOH there are lots of second hand hulls available since it uses the 49er platform with a new rig.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247758
05/04/12 11:01 AM
05/04/12 11:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Wow... 19 -14...

That is much closer than I would have thought... given the consensus that the FX bid had developed in the comittee process..(10 to 2) if I remember... The FX is the biggest of the skiffs.... some worry that their small woman won't be able to push the boat... therefore... not competitive... 19-14 ... means it will be a real cluster on the multihulls.... The fubar that was the process has resulted in a 5 to 5 tie with the chair voting to 6-5..

I bet Pete Melvin would like these words back
[quote name='Tornado-Cat' timestamp='1336141327' post='3699435']
Pete Melvin:

"The F16 is on the small end of the scale for the crew weight range specified (120 kg to 140 kg) and, in our opinion, would be more exciting and challenging to sail for Olympic-caliber sailors if it had a more powerful sailplan. The F18 typical crew weights exceed the range specified by ISAF. The F18 is also quite a heavy boat for its length and could be made lighter, but the hull volume and surface area would be needlessly large for a lighter Olympic spec F18 platform.

So... the N17 designer says... Ah... we reject the weight range that ISAF called for.... Too light... Most of the F18 sailors can't play....
So.... WE WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM WE WANT.... Replace the F18 class with a lighter better faster boat.

You choose!

Place your bets.... ladies and gents... place your bets

(The little birds tell me that the US is voting N17.)




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Mark Schneider] #247765
05/04/12 03:04 PM
05/04/12 03:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
What I just love about Pete's comments (mr Melvin) is how he designs a boat that is not full spec under F16 rules (25kg overweight) using a F18 mast that is too stiff for a wide range of winds (flat sails) , gets beaten left and right by Vipers and Falcons and then blames the F16 class rules for not being up to spec for 120-140 kg crews.

Drop 25 kg on the platform and gain an extra 10 kg on the wire. Wham, ideal crew weight problem solved ! Shouldn't be to hard to figure out. He did also design an A-cat at min weight right ? Or was it 100 kg ? I can't remember.

If Falcon marine can do it ... ... ...

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/04/12 03:11 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247766
05/04/12 03:16 PM
05/04/12 03:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

Interesting that at 17,000 euro the Mackay FX they have selected is the most expensive of the boats evaluated and slightly more than the 16,750 cost of the first 100 Nacra 17s



Selecting the 49erFX was a sound decision in my opinion. Indeed the purchase prize is steep and it does weight a bit, they noted it as such in the report, but find convincing argument to take these hits in the area's of availability and the the fact the females can cross train with the males using very similar equipment sharing most spares.

A sound balancing of conflicting criteria.

With respect to the N17 ... ... slightly different story. That thing is just expensive without providing any concrete benefits in return with respect to availability, cross training, etc.

Or at least that is my opinion.

Last edited by Wouter; 05/04/12 03:16 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247771
05/04/12 05:16 PM
05/04/12 05:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
daniel_t Offline
enthusiast
daniel_t  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
Woter, as far as I understand the class rules, there is no such thing as a boat that weighs too much to be an F16 (assuming all other measurements are in spec.) Hell, a Mystere 5.0 XL, at 143kg, fits the F16 spec (actually I think the jib is just a bit too big, but otherwise...)


Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247773
05/04/12 05:34 PM
05/04/12 05:34 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
You misunderstood Wouter's comment - he just meant it's not designed to the limits of the rule.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Wouter] #247774
05/04/12 05:40 PM
05/04/12 05:40 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
Originally Posted by Wouter
...gets beaten left and right by Vipers and Falcons

Is that a reference to Carnac, or are you talking about some results from elsewhere? I wasn't aware that the Nacra F16 had been seen much in competition yet. Were there some at Carnac?

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247777
05/04/12 09:53 PM
05/04/12 09:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
19 to 14... for the FX... but, the amazing thing is that the 14 was for the 29ner XX which was not recommended by the event committee. So council pulled that boat up. with the RS getting just 2 votes.

per Goodall... the issue debated was supply and fun..

the two choices were both rig upgrades to existing platforms.... (29ners are a bear in 20 knots... just to get around the course).

I surmise that supply eliminated the new design of the RS900.... While the fun factor and team size split the votes 19 to 14 for the FX and 29nerXX

So much for rubber stamping the event committee... which was strongly for the 49ner FX. Wow, How do they look at the fubar cat document that was essentially tied at the event committee...

Supply could be an issue in cats as well. The council may not want to chance a N17... and the fun factor is probably about the same for the viper and N17... Could the council pull up the Hobie 16??? and vote that boat against the Viper ...

The dog that has not barked... the Hobie 16 ? Really?



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Wouter] #247778
05/04/12 10:26 PM
05/04/12 10:26 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1
J
Jay G Offline
stranger
Jay G  Offline
stranger
J

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1
Wouter-
Pete doesn't need me to defend him but I want to let you know that all 5 of the M&M designed A cats that my wife and I have owned over the past 15 years have been minimum weight. The A3.5 I took delivery of last week- beautifully built by Lars Guck- is 4 kg light and incredibly stiff.
Jay Glaser

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247779
05/04/12 11:35 PM
05/04/12 11:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Wouter should contact Pete directly and give him the heads up and perhaps some advice on how to design a good boat... I'm sure it will be very helpful and maybe even some of Wouter's advice will show through on the ETNZ AC72....


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247780
05/05/12 12:23 AM
05/05/12 12:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Kennethsf Offline
member
Kennethsf  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by macca
Wouter should contact Pete directly and give him the heads up and perhaps some advice on how to design a good boat... I'm sure it will be very helpful and maybe even some of Wouter's advice will show through on the ETNZ AC72....


hmm since wouter is pissing off all things pete made (he also seems to know that the mast is to stiff -macca, you were involved in the discussion desciding on that mast section- next time call wouter.)and he is spinning all data towards the viper, my guess he is allready hired via bundock by the Orecale design team. To bad for etnz.ииииииииииии

What a joker

btw i love f16, i take delivery of one next week. I ordered it because i want to start sailing with my 12 year old daughter. Nice concept but no olympic boat. Period.

Last edited by Kennethsf; 05/05/12 12:47 AM.
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247784
05/05/12 02:54 AM
05/05/12 02:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
N
NacramanUK Offline
journeyman
NacramanUK  Offline
journeyman
N

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
Nacra 17 is the new Olympic multihull...

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247785
05/05/12 03:21 AM
05/05/12 03:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
old hand
waynemarlow  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
Originally Posted by macca
Wouter should contact Pete directly and give him the heads up and perhaps some advice on how to design a good boat... I'm sure it will be very helpful and maybe even some of Wouter's advice will show through on the ETNZ AC72....


Macca why is it you have to have a dig at everything that Wouter says, he is just one of many on a forum giving an opinion. He is a highly skilled engineer and gives opinion based on research unlike many who pontificate on this forum.

In some ways he gives a far more honest unbiased opinion than yourself, at least he doesn't flip flop from one opinion to another depending on who your association with is at the time.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247786
05/05/12 03:24 AM
05/05/12 03:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
There were several at the thai regatta in januari, sailed by capable crews like gunnar etc, then of course they were raced at the trials and there we also two racing at Carnac in the C1 fleet. of course in the latter case the big boys were on F18's but still amateur crews on Vipers and Falcons passed them, so this piece of race data may still be valid. Then we also have the race data from springfever this tear were Joseph Bello raced the nacra F16, Joseph sailed Viper earlier. His video's are on youtube Incl. his springfever racing.

So yes the nacra F16 is getting around and has raced now in Asia, USA and Europe in a few big regatta's.

Last edited by Wouter; 05/05/12 03:24 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Cholley12), 254 guests, and 264 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Nickv, jgsanchez, Tressa, EvoOwner, bigbird
7984 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Timbo 2
Dermot 2
JeffS 1
Will_R 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,371
Posts266,960
Members7,984
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1