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Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Jay G] #247787
05/05/12 03:31 AM
05/05/12 03:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Sorry Mr Jay G.

That was a bit of European cynism. Of course I know that those A's were at minimum weight , that was exactly the point. By extention I imply the question "why isn't his F16 at or close to min weight" . If he has proven that he can design a winner that way then there must be some other reason why the boat isn't full spec. Note that its mainsail is quoted as smaller then the Vipers in the ISAf document as well. And why use F18 masts etc.

As such this says more about the design choices made with the Nacra F16 then about the validity of the F16 class rules.

Simply put. Want to create a well performing F16 for crews in the given weight range ? Design a full spec F16 using components optimized for F16 sailing.

Hence my later question, if Falcon marine can do it ... ... why not M&M / Nacra ? Those €19.000 ex taxes or delivery for the N17 will also be sufficient for a full spec carbon F16.

I think this has nothing to do with what class rules allow or not, in contrast what Pete says. It has everything to do with decisions made within Nacra. Why not say so ? There is nothing to be ashamed of there.

wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/05/12 03:39 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: waynemarlow] #247788
05/05/12 03:38 AM
05/05/12 03:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by macca
Wouter should contact Pete directly and give him the heads up and perhaps some advice on how to design a good boat... I'm sure it will be very helpful and maybe even some of Wouter's advice will show through on the ETNZ AC72....


Macca why is it you have to have a dig at everything that Wouter says, he is just one of many on a forum giving an opinion. He is a highly skilled engineer and gives opinion based on research unlike many who pontificate on this forum.

In some ways he gives a far more honest unbiased opinion than yourself, at least he doesn't flip flop from one opinion to another depending on who your association with is at the time.


because Wouter seems to think that he knows more about multihull design than Pete Melvin....

I dont flip on my position, I have always said that the F16 is not the right boat for the games, the evaluation sailors agreed as did the events and equipment committees and finally the ISAF council members.

I have NO association with Nacra, In fact you could even say that I am anti nacra as there is still outstandings to be settled and until then I have no desire to support them or their products. I have simply made my thoughts known on what I consider to be the best solution for sailing in the games.


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247789
05/05/12 03:49 AM
05/05/12 03:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Macca,

Give me Petes mail adres and I will !

Thinking that carbon masts are not allowed inside the F16's and saying so in public as a F16 boat designer is just simply wrong.

Blaming the F16 class rules in public for your own "underperforming" design choices incorporated in the Nacra F16 is also lamentable. If the nacra F16 doesn't fit 120 kg - 140 kg then that is NOT an F16 problem as proven many times over at Alter cups sailed on Blades and Viper F16's (3 times) etc.

Lets face it, this is a critical time and Pete must have understood that his comments would immediately have been read as critiques on the Viper bit. As such he himself has chosen to enter the political fray. Now he either does that thruthfully and is respected or he does so using verifiable untruths and will get called out on those.

You don't have to be einstein to work that out.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/05/12 03:50 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Wouter] #247791
05/05/12 04:06 AM
05/05/12 04:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
info@morrellimelvin.com good luck, maybe he will get you on the first flight to Auckland...



________________________
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Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247792
05/05/12 04:37 AM
05/05/12 04:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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waynemarlow  Offline
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W

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
Originally Posted by macca

I dont flip on my position, I have always said that the F16 is not the right boat for the games, the evaluation sailors agreed as did the events and equipment committees and finally the ISAF council members.


Macca, using just one criteria that of the F16 Olympic campaign ( which you have always stated is the wrong boat for the Olympics ) is a bit like saying that what went before my latest campaign isn't counted.

I do admire your eloquency and choice of words in your writing but then most politcians have that trait and unfortunately having a way with words doesn't always have the best long term interest for the masses, it just keeps the politicians in a job.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247793
05/05/12 04:39 AM
05/05/12 04:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 14
Lincoln, Nebraska
FRENZIED Offline
stranger
FRENZIED  Offline
stranger

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Posts: 14
Lincoln, Nebraska
Does anyone know how much the N17 weighs?


LANDLOCKED
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: FRENZIED] #247794
05/05/12 04:41 AM
05/05/12 04:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
N
NacramanUK Offline
journeyman
NacramanUK  Offline
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N

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by FRENZIED
Does anyone know how much the N17 weighs?


142Kg....

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: NacramanUK] #247795
05/05/12 04:45 AM
05/05/12 04:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 14
Lincoln, Nebraska
FRENZIED Offline
stranger
FRENZIED  Offline
stranger

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 14
Lincoln, Nebraska
Thanks!


LANDLOCKED
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: NacramanUK] #247796
05/05/12 05:23 AM
05/05/12 05:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline
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waynemarlow  Offline
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W

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
Originally Posted by NacramanUK
Originally Posted by FRENZIED
Does anyone know how much the N17 weighs?


142Kg....


Ooouch,bit of a porker then.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247797
05/05/12 05:54 AM
05/05/12 05:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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I stand by my word so read below a copy of the mail I have just send :



Dear mr. Melvin,

I write to you in relation to the comments you made with respect to F16's. I refer to the series of comments as published at the following location.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nacra-Sailing/215545338553


You wrote :

"... we were considering adding performance-enhancing features like a carbon mast and curved daggerboards. The F16 class and F18 class rules do not allow either of these features."

This is patently untrue. The F16 class has always allowed carbon masts and indeed a good number of them (about 75) are sailing / racing with one. In fact, different winners of past F16 championships used one with other winners using aluminium. I admit that I'm a little surprised that a F16 designer is not aware of that fact.


You also wrote :

"The F16 is on the small end of the scale for the crew weight range specified (120 kg to 140 kg), and, in our opinion, would be more exciting and challenging to sail for Olympic-caliber sailors if it had a more powerful sailplan."

This may be the case for the 131 kg heavy Nacra F16 that was presented at the trials with a combo of an alu mast section optimized for F18's and an (undersized ?) mainsail of only 13.35 sq.mtr (ex mast area), but much less so for a full spec F16's with a minimum class weight of 107 kg, an optimized F16 mast and a mainsail (excl. mast area) of 13.72 sq.mtr (combined 15 sq. mtr.)

The F16 class rules were optimized for that particular set of dimensions and maximizing it to those specs will already lift competitive crew weight by more then 10 kg. I also think it to be instructive that past Alter Cup events on F16's (3 in total) do indicate that the fullness of that range is indeed competitive, even when using the Vipers. Same conclusions may be drawn from the various F16 European and World championships. In fact, in those events the range of 120-140 kg was itself considered to be at the low end.


I desired to write to you about these statements since they now have entered the public domain and you are seen as an authority in cat sailing and cat design. I admit that opinions are opinions and one can endlessly argue about those, but the statements above are clearly based on misintepretations of the F16 class rules. As such these hurts the F16 class needlessly and there also appears to be ample room to lift the Nacra F16 performance. Both points compel me to write to you about this.


With kinds regards,

Wouter Hijink


(Co-founder and first chairman of the Formula 16 class)


Last edited by Wouter; 05/05/12 05:56 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247798
05/05/12 05:57 AM
05/05/12 05:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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+1

Give 'em hell Woot!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: NacramanUK] #247799
05/05/12 06:30 AM
05/05/12 06:30 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
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MarkMT  Offline
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Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
Originally Posted by NacramanUK
Nacra 17 is the new Olympic multihull...

20-15 over the Viper - http://bit.ly/IB5pHD

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247800
05/05/12 06:31 AM
05/05/12 06:31 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
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MarkMT  Offline
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Great news imo... less chance of negative impact on the F16 class.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247802
05/05/12 07:39 AM
05/05/12 07:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Originally Posted by MarkMT
Great news imo... less chance of negative impact on the F16 class.


True and minimal impact on growing the sport of sailing as well. I see it as a missed opportunity.

This council went big.... Big skiff... big cat and kiteboarding over windsurf with a core of 19-20 countries.
This group also tossed the keel boats.

Congratulations to Nacra.
I wonder how the regional championship systems will work out.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247803
05/05/12 08:45 AM
05/05/12 08:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
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Bob_Curry  Offline
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Now the F16 is really a FAD!!!
grin

wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Bob_Curry] #247804
05/05/12 09:04 AM
05/05/12 09:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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That has GOT to be the longest running joke in Cat Racing history!!!

Two points! Bob


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Bob_Curry] #247805
05/05/12 09:09 AM
05/05/12 09:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Touche, Bob ! grin


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: MarkMT] #247809
05/05/12 10:17 AM
05/05/12 10:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by MarkMT
Great news imo... less chance of negative impact on the F16 class.


I never saw a downside. It'd give the mortals a chance to play with the gods of the sport. With the 17 they'll probably be in their own little world just like they were with the Tornado.


I'm boatless.
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Wouter] #247810
05/05/12 10:34 AM
05/05/12 10:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Wouter
What I just love about Pete's comments (mr Melvin) is how he designs a boat that is not full spec under F16 rules (25kg overweight) using a F18 mast that is too stiff for a wide range of winds (flat sails) , gets beaten left and right by Vipers and Falcons and then blames the F16 class rules for not being up to spec for 120-140 kg crews.

Drop 25 kg on the platform and gain an extra 10 kg on the wire. Wham, ideal crew weight problem solved ! Shouldn't be to hard to figure out. He did also design an A-cat at min weight right ? Or was it 100 kg ? I can't remember.

If Falcon marine can do it ... ... ...

Wouter


Isn't the Viper over minimum weight as well? I remember Goodall stating that you couldn't build a durable boat at that weight without starting to include expensive carbons and kevlars.

I'm sure the designers gave the manufacturer (Nacra) the full spectrum...a laminate schedule for a fiberglass boat that is over minimum weight or a boat using carbons and kevlar fabrics at minimum weight. I doubt M&M made that call.


Jake Kohl
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Jake] #247813
05/05/12 11:12 AM
05/05/12 11:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
While we debated Viper versus Nacra 17 for Olympic glory.. I suspect that the real challenge for getting the 20 and 30 something market will be the OTHER Viper..

Viper 640 just started marketing in Annapolis.. 35 K all up with trailer for a 3 person sport boat.

Compare that to a N17 at 27K + 2K trailer.

If your background is Opti, Laser and 420... then OPB... Which way do you go?

(the largest small boat NA's in the country are on 3 person boats.... Lighting's etc...)



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