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Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Jake] #247814
05/05/12 12:56 PM
05/05/12 12:56 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
[quote=Wouter]

... a durable boat at that weight without starting to include expensive carbons and kevlars.

I'm sure the designers gave the manufacturer (Nacra) the full spectrum...a laminate schedule for a fiberglass boat that is over minimum weight or a boat using carbons and kevlar fabrics at minimum weight. I doubt M&M made that call.



Like I said, if falcon can do it ... (and others like stealth marine and amateur homebuilders too)

Besides, if there is money to be spend on C-boards then there is also money to be spend on carbons etc. It is just a matter of choice and €19.000 before taxes and delivery goes a long way. Many €13.000 ex taxes or delivery alu - glass F16's are already at 115 kg or less and have proven themselves over many years of sailing. Not using F18 components like beams, rudders, boards and masts drops weight considerably.

I agree that M&M probably didn't make this call themselves. But I also doubt whether mr Melvin was presented with a script not of his own hand and asked to put his name under it. His comments are his own and it contains errors / falsehoods.


With respect to the Viper, AHPC have proven the validity of the given weight range for their boats thus disagreeing with the opinion of mr Melvin. Additionally, they don't "slack" on the F16 specs when they themselves have chosen to not go full throttle on them. Neither do they make obvious mistakes as to state that carbon masts are not allowed.

Last edited by Wouter; 05/05/12 01:13 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247815
05/05/12 02:18 PM
05/05/12 02:18 PM
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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Yea (roll eyes)....minimum weight F16's are real eggshells ...like Matt's Falcon here in the video. Maybe the naysayers need to hire Matt as a consultant to help them get their strength/weight/price issues sorted out. If he can build here in the US with the insanity of the EPA and other business killing government bureaucracy, the offshore crew should be able to do it for a fraction of the price using cheap labor, little to no environmental restrictions, and economy of scale to lower material costs...

http://vimeo.com/32382270

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Mark Schneider] #247816
05/05/12 02:22 PM
05/05/12 02:22 PM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
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The Nacra 17 is a bit too powerful and too innovative for the (needed) renovation of the local SC15 and SC17 fleet. However, if the Viper was chosen, we would probably be able to convince people to buy a few. ISAF's choice close the doors to our dream of sending a cat to Rio 2016.

I guess the same will happen in other small countries.


Luiz
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Bob_Curry] #247817
05/05/12 03:45 PM
05/05/12 03:45 PM
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catandahalf Offline OP
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Yeah a fad, eh?

Get Real, Bob . what boat do you think youth sailors ARE using to develop into potential Olympic sailors???

Some of the kids are out of your own yacht club, dude.

I bet your help building up the NACRA 17 Class will outweigh your antagonism with the F 16 Class.

Enjoy the day and always sail with Aloha,
Bert

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247820
05/05/12 04:19 PM
05/05/12 04:19 PM
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Lighten up, Francis! grin grin

OR...

HTFU, mate. laugh laugh

wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247823
05/05/12 06:34 PM
05/05/12 06:34 PM
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alsail Offline
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AH come on, Bob dosen't hate the boat just the fact that he can't out correct it's number. Don't worry Bob they'll change the number soon enough and that will even the playing field some. ha ha

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Luiz] #247831
05/06/12 07:25 AM
05/06/12 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Luiz
The Nacra 17 is a bit too powerful and too innovative for the (needed) renovation of the local SC15 and SC17 fleet. However, if the Viper was chosen, we would probably be able to convince people to buy a few. ISAF's choice close the doors to our dream of sending a cat to Rio 2016.

I guess the same will happen in other small countries.



How come??? just buy the Vipers or Falcons for that matter, and train the same, cause if someone in your, or any other fleet will try to clasify for the Olympics they can get really good on an F16, and I think is the perfect boat to jump for the N17 afterwards without too much adaptation.

Right there is mistake in my view.

In ARG once having the F18 fleet, whichever boat was elected it was transparent for us, as the best guys can ride whatever you put them in front.

That is now, but with Lange-Espínola it was just two guys training alone in Europe with the Tornado fleet with no local multi fleet whatsoever.

Two examples that grass roots does not have a direct influence on the Olympics, but having them will elevate the possible new atlhetes.

The best thing you can do to form future Olympians is just buying those F16.



Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Jake] #247833
05/06/12 07:53 AM
05/06/12 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Wouter
What I just love about Pete's comments (mr Melvin) is how he designs a boat that is not full spec under F16 rules (25kg overweight) using a F18 mast that is too stiff for a wide range of winds (flat sails) , gets beaten left and right by Vipers and Falcons and then blames the F16 class rules for not being up to spec for 120-140 kg crews.

Drop 25 kg on the platform and gain an extra 10 kg on the wire. Wham, ideal crew weight problem solved ! Shouldn't be to hard to figure out. He did also design an A-cat at min weight right ? Or was it 100 kg ? I can't remember.

Originally Posted by Jake

I'm sure the designers gave the manufacturer (Nacra) the full spectrum...a laminate schedule for a fiberglass boat that is over minimum weight or a boat using carbons and kevlar fabrics at minimum weight. I doubt M&M made that call.


Yeah - I winced the first time I read Pete Melvin's statement. It would have been better to stick the N17 design elements than to venture into the marketing & selection campaign spin. M&M's designs speak for themselves. Thankfully to Wouter, he is more informed about the F16 class rules wink.





Kris Hathaway
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: F18arg] #247834
05/06/12 07:56 AM
05/06/12 07:56 AM
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Yeah, I think that the selection of the N17 will indeed make it harder to attract new nations to the Olympics. So there Luiz is correct and the ISAF committees are wrong.

But on the other hand, ArgF18 makes a good point in my opinion. No-one is going to build fleets of N17's, not even the rich nations. Even if the will and money would be there then the timeframe is simply to short to be able to do that before 2016 and no-one knows what will happen after 2016. Therefore the growing and maturing of sailors is still going to be handled via the H16/Nacra500/SL16 -> F16/F18 route.

There is simply no alternative. Of course the F16's come closest to the N17 by virtue of both being much lighter then the F18's and the (allowed) usage of carbon masts.

Additionally the investments have already been made with respect to the F16's. All makes now have sponsored talent teams and training programs around them. Best we can all do now is to go full steam ahead with everything that we were doing and just see the N17 as a Tornado replacement. A boat of which each MNA will eventually have 2 or 3 in pocession for the final stretch to the big O. That is the only viable pathway.


See the two newest additions in maturing talented sailors (Falcon F16's in Belgium, Nacra F16's in NL)

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Last edited by Wouter; 05/06/12 08:14 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Kris Hathaway] #247837
05/06/12 08:08 AM
05/06/12 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway
Originally Posted by Wouter
What I just love about Pete's comments (mr Melvin) is how he designs a boat that is not full spec under F16 rules (25kg overweight) using a F18 mast that is too stiff for a wide range of winds (flat sails) , gets beaten left and right by Vipers and Falcons and then blames the F16 class rules for not being up to spec for 120-140 kg crews.

Drop 25 kg on the platform and gain an extra 10 kg on the wire. Wham, ideal crew weight problem solved ! Shouldn't be to hard to figure out. He did also design an A-cat at min weight right ? Or was it 100 kg ? I can't remember.

Originally Posted by Jake

I'm sure the designers gave the manufacturer (Nacra) the full spectrum...a laminate schedule for a fiberglass boat that is over minimum weight or a boat using carbons and kevlar fabrics at minimum weight. I doubt M&M made that call.


Yeah - I winced the first time I read Pete Melvin's statement. It would have been better to stick the N17 design elements than to venture into the marketing & selection campaign spin. M&M's designs speak for themselves. Thankfully to Wouter, he is more informed about the F16 class rules wink.





Chalk it up to the lost art of repartee and political correctness.

No one should get a pass on their published comments. Had he expected to be scrutinized he likely would have checked his facts.

Unfortunately you have to check everything that comes from NACRA and their supporters.

Never forget we're in a trade war!

Last edited by pgp; 05/06/12 08:10 AM.

Pete Pollard
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Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: pgp] #247838
05/06/12 08:18 AM
05/06/12 08:18 AM
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"Unfortunately you have to check everything that comes from NACRA and their supporters."

As indeed we have to do with everything coming from AHPC as well. And Hobie, ITA, Roland Gaebler, ... etc


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: pgp] #247842
05/06/12 08:36 AM
05/06/12 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pgp

Unfortunately you have to check everything that comes from NACRA and their supporters.


It is incumbent to be critical with all spin/marketing statements, not just NACRA's. Some are better than others. Frequently, it is a statement that is true but leaves the reader to conclude incorrectly by what is not said.

For example, Jake's dredging up of the statement about "having to use expensive" materials to build a lighter boat that is durable. And.....It leaves the non-critical reader to assume wrongly that a lighter boat would be too expensive or corners would have to be cut to save in cost that questions the lighter boat's durability.


Kris Hathaway
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247843
05/06/12 08:37 AM
05/06/12 08:37 AM
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Well Florida, fortunately, has an excellent NACRA rep. I've never heard a bad word about him. I think and hope he'll sell a lot of F16s.



Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: Wouter] #247844
05/06/12 08:37 AM
05/06/12 08:37 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Wouter


"Unfortunately you have to check everything that comes from NACRA and their supporters."

As indeed we have to do with everything coming from AHPC as well. And Hobie, ITA, Roland Gaebler, ... etc


But nobody in the F-16 class would ever bulsh!t or put a spin on something, never. Just read any post by Woutster. Get over the sour grapes .The F-16 is probably WAY better off NOT being involved in the Olympics. Be glad you didn't get the nod.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

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Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
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Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247845
05/06/12 08:39 AM
05/06/12 08:39 AM
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That has nothing to do with it(though you may be right).

The concern is a misstatement of F16 class rules by a world famous designer. He should have known better.


Last edited by pgp; 05/06/12 08:43 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: pgp] #247847
05/06/12 08:51 AM
05/06/12 08:51 AM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by pgp
That has nothing to do with it. The concern is a misstatement of F16 class rules by a world famous designer. He should have known better.




And you or anyone else on this forum has never misstated something. It's only important to you guys, the rest of the world doesn't give a rat's butt ,probably including Pete M. So the the F-16 allows carbon masts ,stop the presses and let's lynch the best multihull designer in the US because he misstated that world changing fact. The F-16 class would be huge if it wasn't for a handful of you guys. I'm surprised you all haven't brought up slander charges. OOOOHHHHH the humanity. GET A F*CKING GRIP! You got free press by the designer of the new Olympic boat. Any press is good press.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: catandahalf] #247848
05/06/12 08:53 AM
05/06/12 08:53 AM
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I suggest keel hauling mr Melvin for his crimes against the F16 class.


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Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247850
05/06/12 08:54 AM
05/06/12 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
I suggest keel hauling mr Melvin for his crimes against the F16 class.


Let the tribunals begin.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247853
05/06/12 09:23 AM
05/06/12 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
I suggest keel hauling mr Melvin for his crimes against the F16 class.

Maybe tar and feathering but use gelcoat instead grin. Of course if it were Macca, they will use paint laugh ! Cast no stones from your glass house.


Kris Hathaway
Re: NACRA 17 into final stage for selection [Re: macca] #247856
05/06/12 09:50 AM
05/06/12 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by macca
I suggest keel hauling mr Melvin for his crimes against the F16 class.


+1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEtPluUi0_U

Last edited by pgp; 05/06/12 10:07 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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