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Worrell 1000
by Damon Linkous. 09/16/19 01:46 PM
Aus Nacra National Titles 2019-2020
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Sloop v uni #248202
05/12/12 09:25 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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While I'm thinking about new sails, how about a new mast?!

My last time out the sloops just walked away and there was nothing I could do. Is that just me or is there some other sail/mast combination that would help even the playing field. As things stand, Imo the sloops are just faster in winds over 10 knots.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248207
05/12/12 11:46 AM
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Timbo Offline
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Were you Uni or two up? The jib gives the back side of the main a 'turbo boost' vs. sailing Uni, which is supposed to be offset by having less weight (no crew) on the Uni.

I've found in very light air, I'd rather have that turbo boost (with a very light crew, say, 100 lbs.) than go Uni. But in 10knots, a Uni should be able to keep up with the sloops, going upwind.


Blade F16
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248209
05/12/12 12:23 PM
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Uni.

Racing against Terry & Kris, I stayed with them in the 1st race (light air) but in the 2nd the wind picked up to 10-11.

My thinking is that the A class has done an awful lot of experimenting with mast/sail comibnations. Not so much experimenting with the F16 uni.

Did you happen to notice Kris picked up three 3rds at GYC? What, she's been driving a year now?


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248211
05/12/12 02:14 PM
05/12/12 02:14 PM
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Hamburg
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I guess it is -as you said- just you. It is because you said that with more wind the sloops are faster than you.
As Timbo said you need the "turbo" jib in light winds, once you are fully powered (e.g. trapezing) you should be equal or better as uni in upwind conditions . Well, in theory. An uni is more difficult to sail. If you bear away too much the flow around the first sail stalls and you have in case of an uni no power (first sail = main) and in case of a sloop just a bit less power (just the jib(=first sail) stalls, but not the main).
The good news is that you don't need to buy new sail(s) but just a few tell tales and sail more often to learn not stalling the sail.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248213
05/12/12 02:43 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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I'm confused Klaus. Let me state it differently.

I sail uni (mostly). After about 10 knots of wind the sloops are able to sail better upwind. Is any one else experiencing this? If so what are you doing to minimize it?



Pete Pollard
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248217
05/12/12 03:37 PM
05/12/12 03:37 PM
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West coast of Norway
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Stretch out, lower down, and get out on your toes while trapezeing. Leverage, downhaul, sheeting and steering with wind/waves does the rest. That is, unless the game have changed while I have been in my workshop.


Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248218
05/12/12 04:16 PM
05/12/12 04:16 PM
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The uni F16 is as fast or faster than the sloops upwind in medium breeze. So with 10knots you should have no trouble living with the sloops.
The Achilles heel for the uni F16 is boat handling in anything above 15knots. However upwind in this level of wind the two modes are still fairly even.


John Alani
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248221
05/12/12 05:28 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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That sort of fits in with what I've always believed. I'd read years ago that physics favors the uni or "cat rigged" boat upwind because the jib tends to bring the bows down.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248228
05/12/12 10:47 PM
05/12/12 10:47 PM
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Melbourne, Australia
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As soon as a sloop pulls 2 strings, a cat will not keep up. That has been my experience in f16s and Taipans. 2 on the wire and they truck upwind.


Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248233
05/13/12 05:54 AM
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Is there a physical law describing this situation? Something designers hang their hats on?

What about the A class? Does anything go to weather better? Oh, and the C class comes to mind.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: Jalani] #248244
05/13/12 11:01 AM
05/13/12 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Jalani
The uni F16 is as fast or faster than the sloops upwind in medium breeze. So with 10knots you should have no trouble living with the sloops.


I'm pretty sure that things have moved on somewhat more than the Stealth rig and that the latest Viper and Falcon rig is certainly better than even a view years ago right across all wind spectrums. Certain top Viper sailors are quoting that they can fly a hull in anything over 6 -7 knots dual, which if you then use the extra righting moment, means the uni can no longer really compete at any level with the sloop, either upwind or down, light wind or strong.

In saying that having now sailed an A for a season, I would say that the A rigs are certainly more suited for the singlehanded F16, there certainly is a quantum leap between the Stealth rig ( set up as a sloop sail with more powerful bottom section maximising the jib, minus jib )and the A rig I have ( much more even spread of power over the sail )

As an experiment I'm just about to put the A rig on my F16 to fully understand the differences. If the A rig is so much better then could we allow the A rig into our rules for solos, there are plenty of stiffer older masts and good quality well researched and tested sails about at good prices now that the fashion for bendy fore and aft masts are all the fashion in the A's.

The alternative is, as we often discussed before, allowing the Uni to sail with a blade jib.

Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248250
05/13/12 11:45 AM
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Any science to go with all this? My own observation says an A class will beat any F16/18 to the weather mark given equal sailors.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248252
05/13/12 12:17 PM
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I'm not sure the A class is the king as much as people say any more, certainly from the handicap racing I did last year I would say that the A , F16 and F18 are all pretty equal. The F boats certainly have had a lot of sail and rig development these last few years whilst that gain was some years ago with the A's. One only has to look at the way the F18's handicap is dropping to see that this is backed up with results ( even Macca was whinging about this recently in one of his posts ).

Re: Sloop v uni [Re: waynemarlow] #248253
05/13/12 12:23 PM
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laugh We have some A class sailors you'd have to see to believe!

I see the top of the F16 fleet competitive with the top of the F18 fleet but don't get to see them start with the A class enough to make a judgement.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248254
05/13/12 12:36 PM
05/13/12 12:36 PM
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Ok...wait a minute, the A Cats are 70lbs. (160) lighter than the F16's (230) and they have a taller mast, so of course they are going to go upwind better.

I pass them all going downwind however!

As far as putting the A Rig onto the F16, that would be very interesting to see. What is their total mainsail area vs. ours?

And adding the jib to the F16, sailed solo, is a lot of fun in light/medium air. That's how I sail it at home, not at a regatta of course. But not sure how it would be with more sail area up high, as with the A cat main. In light air it would be great, but how about in a good blow?

Oh, and are you going to run your spinny off that A cat mast? I think if you keep the mainsheet tight, it might survive...or not!


Blade F16
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248255
05/13/12 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by pgp
laugh We have some A class sailors you'd have to see to believe!


And thats exactly why we all think the A is just so good, the standard of sailor across the A class is top drawer, unlike most other classes.

The F18's with the demise of the Olympic status of the Tornado, has suddenly become the pinnacle of crewed boats and with the increased R & D by the manufacturers due to more competition within the class, has made significant leaps ahead both in design and crew competance.

But they are very different boats attracting very different sailors, one has finesse and efficiency like a F1 the other brute horsepower like a hotrod.

My betting with world class sailors on both, they both would be pretty equal at the first mark.My betting that with future development such as the new generation of boards, and a weight loss diet ( which the F18's are going to be forced into by the new F17 unless they want to see crews moving over class ) will see the F18 ahead in a relatively short time.

Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248256
05/13/12 12:48 PM
05/13/12 12:48 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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cry WAIT A MINUTE! THIS IS MY THREAD!

Tim you don't pass them ALL going down wind!

And how about all the work the A class has done on masts and sails? How can the rig we use, F16s, work equally well for sloop and uni? If nothing else there is a weight difference.

Without changing any rules, I'm guessing there is a better mast/sail combination for uni sailors.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: Timbo] #248258
05/13/12 01:08 PM
05/13/12 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Ok...wait a minute, the A Cats are 70lbs. (160) lighter than the F16's (230) and they have a taller mast, so of course they are going to go upwind better.


Weight is not everything and as hull dynamics in the water are improved, the heavier boat with much larger sail areas, can defy the predicted drag in the water. The SCHRS revision this year has begun to take this into consideration and has revised the way light boats are penalised.

[/quote]

Originally Posted by Timbo

As far as putting the A Rig onto the F16, that would be very interesting to see. What is their total mainsail area vs. ours?


I've already run the A rig on Bitsa albiet with a different sail and it was a much nicer boat to sail. There's not much differnce in sail area 13.95 v 15 sqm

Originally Posted by Timbo
And adding the jib to the F16, sailed solo, is a lot of fun in light/medium air. That's how I sail it at home, not at a regatta of course. But not sure how it would be with more sail area up high, as with the A cat main. In light air it would be great, but how about in a good blow?


Theres not much difference in mast height 8.5m v 9.3 m and the F16 platform is wider and hulls heavier, so probably pretty even from a Uni point. The jibs power is much lower down and has less efect on RM but and the big but, gives much more drive over the lower part of the main.

Originally Posted by Timbo

Oh, and are you going to run your spinny off that A cat mast? I think if you keep the mainsheet tight, it might survive...or not!


Mmmm you might be right there but the early masts such as mine were much stiffer than the latest. If you find me crying over a broken mast then you can say "told yah so" smile

Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248260
05/13/12 01:38 PM
05/13/12 01:38 PM
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Timbo Offline
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There have been some guys who did put spinnys on their A cats, not sure if they put a stiffer/stronger mast on first, I doubt it, and their spinnys were probably smaller than the 17sq.mtr on the F16.

Dont't forget the A cats hulls, in addition to being lighter, are two feet longer, (that's 12.5% longer) and I think that makes a speed difference as well as the taller/larger main, going upwind.


Blade F16
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Re: Sloop v uni [Re: pgp] #248261
05/13/12 01:42 PM
05/13/12 01:42 PM
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Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
cry WAIT A MINUTE! THIS IS MY THREAD!

Tim you don't pass them ALL going down wind!

And how about all the work the A class has done on masts and sails? How can the rig we use, F16s, work equally well for sloop and uni? If nothing else there is a weight difference.

Without changing any rules, I'm guessing there is a better mast/sail combination for uni sailors.


If you want to spend the time and money to do the reserach, design, and experiment with it, I'm sure you could find the "Perfect Combination" for a mast/sail combo. But who has that time and money?

Only the A cat guys!



Blade F16
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