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Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? #252635
09/24/12 12:09 PM
09/24/12 12:09 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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For those who have followed the only active thread the last days we have touched on uni vs 2-up competitiveness.

Anectdotal evidence suggests that 2-up have the racing advantage and that the extra weight, extra sailarea in the jib and lets not forget the jibes and roundings make it very hard for the uni sailors to compete.

What are your thoughts about this. Is this correct, and why?

If it is indeed correct, what suggestions could be put on the table to even out the racing scene between technically competitive boats and sailors.

Uni vs two-up
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 09/24/12 12:06 PM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252647
09/24/12 01:26 PM
09/24/12 01:26 PM
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Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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Rolf,

I think the uni's are advantaged in the light stuff around the course. The advantage in boatspeed and angle both up and downwind compensates enough for having only 2 hands.

In the medium and heavy wind I think the uni can still race fair upwind (Hans Klok was superfast upwind last race in Holland with 15-20 knots of wind).
In these conditions however the hoisting and retrieving takes too long for the unis. Once the spin is up, I think in 20+ a uni will still loose, in everything below I think you should be able to keep up. So getting a system to hoist and retrieve fast would make the biggest difference I think.

I have been talking about this at the worlds with some people and having a system where you can store energy during the race to 'auto' hoist or retrieve the spinnaker could be a solution.

Gill


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252649
09/24/12 01:37 PM
09/24/12 01:37 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Thanks for a pretty balanced post Gilo.

I have been thinking along the same lines with a shockcord system you can tension with your feet up while going upwind/downwind. Once you decide to hoist/douse, release the shockcord with a spinlock and *swoosh* the spi is flying.
What would stop the 2-up crews from implementing the same "stored energy" hoist and retrieval systems and thus nullify the advantage?

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252656
09/24/12 02:16 PM
09/24/12 02:16 PM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Interesting, to me 2 up seem to be able to fly a hull in about 7 - 8 knots of wind, 1 up from about 6 - 7 knots, any thing beyond that and the two ups righting moment is going to really really pay big dividends. Do we run races often in winds below 7-8 knots, not often, which means just 1 knot of uni advantage before the 2 ups are able to use the better sail handling and RM to their advantage.

We also have the problem of the jib in making the bottom of the main really work at all times, having sailed both Uni and with a jib ( albiet on a different style of boat )I can only say just how much easier it is to set the mainsail with the jib.

For me the clincher was seeing Greg do so badly at Garda when he sailed solo. In a later discussion I had with the SCHRS all those involved seem to agree on the advantages of the dual handed boats in almost any part of a sailing race course.

Its an interesting connundrum.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252665
09/24/12 07:23 PM
09/24/12 07:23 PM

C
chackett
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chackett
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C



Another situation is gusty conditions, I find it difficult to be solo, only two arms and dealing with conditions where you could use some downhaul on and off, possibly some mast rotator adjustment, traveller adjustment, and then the newer f16s with the long boards. I would have to think a good solo sailor against a good light-mod weight 2 up team is going to lose 8 out of 10 buoy races.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: waynemarlow] #252676
09/24/12 10:16 PM
09/24/12 10:16 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Here's my take on things, for what its worth. I typically sail a pretty good mix of uni and sloop. The last two years have been mostly two up, but I think next year will be a different story and I will be back to sailing singlehanded.

This is also figurin' that crews are of about equal skill. Observations, no real data to back up a single thing. This is also written more from a singlehanded point of view I guess. I'd say I'm probably on the side of defending the singlehanders.

Light air- (I'll define this as sitting on the boat, and not depowering anything) Upwind the two up boats have this pretty well lit up. Mostly because I think its easier to sail a sloop in lighter air. The uni has some height, sure, but the sloop boats have a small advantage going to weather. Especially if there is chop. The extra weight helps get through that. Downwind I'd say the uni has some advantage. Not much difference in height, but downwind sail area is about the same, and the uni can really accelerate and latch onto something moving down the course.

light/moderate air- (On and off the wire singlehanded but mostly on, sloop boats will be sending crew out here and there) This is where the uni shines. You've got height going to weather, and about equal boat speed. Things are moving, but you haven't run out hands yet, and the loads aren't killing you. Downwind you are a rocket and you may or may not be wiring downwind.

moderate air - (Singlehanded is on the wire consistently, two up boats are mostly two wire sailing going to weather, maybe trapping downwind) Uni is starting to get their hands full, and depowering a bit, whereas the sloops aren't doing much in that department. There's more sheeting to be done, and few and far between can run a main with one arm like a crew can with two. Downwind I'm on the wire as much as possible. You pretty much have to be to make up ground on the sloop boats well. Which is another reason why I like having an equal number of course legs, ie two upwind legs, two downwind legs.

Heavy air- (singlehanded is depowered big time and probably maxed, sloops pretty much are too, sloops are definitely wiring downwind. This is where I get my butt handed to me. I've abandoned trapezing downwind because it creates more problems than boat speed for me. I can do it up to about 16kts of wind, but that's about it. There isn't enough weight to get the speed up and really get the apparent wind around, and it starts getting trippy and wanting to dive a lot. I'm not sure its so bad though, as you can drive deep really deep. Upwind though I do think the advantage switches back around to the uni. You don't have the righting moment, but you've got good boat speed, and good angles. You end up footing a bit, because you can't sheet the main properly anyway as it creates too much power. Also screwup's singlehanded get to be much more fatal. Bad jibes, bad douses, etc. and that can cripple things pretty quickly. Things are just moving mega fast, and are hard to keep up with.

Really heavy air- (singlehanded I'm on the beach, to me that's 20+kts) F that noise. I'll mix another drink. I'm not overly fond of it two up either, but I'll do it, and I can have fun. Though weak points tend to get exploited, (either in gear, or skills)



I finish about in the same place in either configuration. Some days are better than others for sure in either scenario. I really don't have much of a preference, except in big fleets. I like having a second set of eyes on the boat for traffic, and you are blind as a bat going downwind on the wire singlehanded. Mark roundings are tough. I've got a big wing span so setting the spin goes quickly, and a pretty good technique for not touching the tiller while either dousing or hoisting the spinnaker. I'm a bit rusty on the singlehanding, but there was a point where I could jibe every bit as well solo as I could with crew.


I do think it takes a different kind of skill set to sail the two configurations. I hadn't been on the boat solo since May up until this past weekend. I had forgotten how to do it. I don't think one is really easier than the other, just different. I will say you have to be more refined with what you do, and think way ahead singlehanded, but that's more just from not being able to do three things at once. Like steer, sheet the main, and pull the tackline.


Just my thoughts.




Originally Posted by waynemarlow
For me the clincher was seeing Greg do so badly at Garda when he sailed solo. In a later discussion I had with the SCHRS all those involved seem to agree on the advantages of the dual handed boats in almost any part of a sailing race course.


Let's take away you're mainsheet cleat and see how well you do. Greg is a good sailor, but I know he hasn't spent a ton of time sailing the Viper singlehanded either. It is a completely different animal in the two different configurations.


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #252679
09/25/12 02:07 AM
09/25/12 02:07 AM
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Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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2 up is always faster above 7 to 8 knots. The 2 extra hands available for spi handling and sail trim is the key. Last Dutch Nationals seen again, i was doing singlehanded and i did lost everytime with the spi hoisting and retrieving around 50 meters at least and with 3 rounds it is aprox 150 meters at least ( traing would help but is simple not enough )and when the wind is increasing the singlehander with spi is more in disadvantage.

Hans

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252683
09/25/12 06:29 AM
09/25/12 06:29 AM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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So far there have only been 9 voters in the poll. Surely more sailors must have an opinion? The trend is pretty clear but the selection is hardly enough for statistical analysis yet wink


Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252687
09/25/12 07:52 AM
09/25/12 07:52 AM
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pgp Offline
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Four hands, less work.


Pete Pollard
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252705
09/25/12 11:44 AM
09/25/12 11:44 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Racing Uni is definately harder, and presents more challenge upwind and down, but that's why I do it, for the challenge. AND...if you do poorly, you have no crew to blame!

As Karl mentioned, I have seen sloops go by me upwind, in very light air, mostly due to the 'turbo' effect the jib gives to the main. But I usually catch them downwind, as I have less weight.

It's usually at the downwind mark/spin douse, where I lose some distance to the Sloops, as they can do it while the skipper is still steering, or out on the wire, and he's trimming the main in, etc. while I've got to basically stop driving/trimming, snuff the spin, and then get back out on the wire and start trimming again.

Having an extra set of hands is a real advantage there, which only gets bigger as the wind increases. Coming in off the wire to snuff really hurts the Uni vs. the Sloops.

If I had the money, and good, reliable, regular crew, I'd have an A cat and a F Something (16 or 18).

The A cat would be for when my crew was unavailble or to go to a good local A cat regatta, and the F boat for the two up 20kt spinnaker runs!

I think in the 'average' wind, what ever that is, (say 8-10kts?) they are pretty equal around the cans, so it comes down to who is sailing their boat at 'optimum' speed with every puff and lull, who see's the shifts coming and who takes advantage quicker. It is easier in all conditions, for the two up crew to shift gears re. adjusting the downhaul, rotator, etc. with two more hands avaiable. So the gustier it gets, the more the sloops should do better by being able to shift gears quicker.


Blade F16
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Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252721
09/25/12 09:48 PM
09/25/12 09:48 PM
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daniel_t Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
So far there have only been 9 voters in the poll. Surely more sailors must have an opinion?


I don't feel qualified to have a vote. I usually sail 1-up and the few times I've had someone else onboard, I still didn't bend on the jib, and I haven't been in any real races, just some beer can runs.

I only have one harness. When my wife/crew does go out with me, she wears the harness and her sole job is to make sure we don't capsize. I leave the jib on shore, and I still take care of everything as if I was sailing 1-up.

Of course, just because I'm not qualified to vote doesn't mean I'm lacking in an opinion. I'm only 150 lbs and it seems to me that I have to de-power the rig long before 2-up crews do. Also, my main is cut for a jib, so it's very hard to get proper flow across both the top and bottom of the sail, usually either the top is luffing or the bottom is stalling.

I've heard about Greg doing badly at Garda, and I can't help but wonder... Was the jib hardware still on the boat? (That jib traveller is pretty heavy.) Was the main cut for a jib? Also, I have sailed an A-Cat a few times and to me, an F-16 has a very different feel. How much 1-up practice did he have *on an F-16*?



Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: daniel_t] #252723
09/26/12 04:00 AM
09/26/12 04:00 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Oh come on guys, Greg is probably one of the worlds greatest sailors of all time, he is a professional sailor who has honed sailing skills that most of us only could dream of, and yet you all are whimpering that he didn't have much practice, broke his mainsheet cleat ( does his A have a cleat, nope )and a host of other excuses I have read on various forums.

The truth is he got whooped by crews of far less experiance on boats of identical build over I think by memory, 3 races ( which probably is not statistically enough to make precise judgement on ). The difference was there were 4 hands on board and 3.8sqm of jib powering up the main on the other boats.

Greg sometimes frequents this forum when tipped off, lets hear his views perhaps as it would cetainly give us the views at the top end of the fleet.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252725
09/26/12 07:38 AM
09/26/12 07:38 AM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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He didn't break the cleat, there wasn't one. How do you hold a main and a spin sheet?


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252726
09/26/12 07:46 AM
09/26/12 07:46 AM
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pgp Offline
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I've decided to add a spin cleat.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252727
09/26/12 07:49 AM
09/26/12 07:49 AM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I've got cleats for the spin sheet. I only use them when cruising.


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252728
09/26/12 07:52 AM
09/26/12 07:52 AM
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pgp Offline
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Mounted where? Side stays?


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #252729
09/26/12 07:55 AM
09/26/12 07:55 AM
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Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
He didn't break the cleat, there wasn't one. How do you hold a main and a spin sheet?


I've been thinking about Greg's problem with no mainsheet cleat since I first heard about it. I think I might have tried to trim in the main to the 'right place' and tie a slip knot in it, then leave it alone and trim the spinnaker. I almost never touch my mainsheet downwind when Uni, just not enough hands.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252730
09/26/12 08:01 AM
09/26/12 08:01 AM
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pgp Offline
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+1

My deficiency has always been to weather. Downwind is relatively a much simpler matter. But I think adding spin cleats will make the jibes a little smoother by sheeting some on the slack sheet before the tack begins.

Last edited by pgp; 09/26/12 08:07 AM.

Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #252735
09/26/12 10:14 AM
09/26/12 10:14 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
He didn't break the cleat, there wasn't one. How do you hold a main and a spin sheet?


Just last week I had the main cleat jam open ( just needed a bit of lubrication ) simply put a loop in a half hitch as I came around the top mark. It took all of about 10 seconds extra. At the bottom mark I simply let out the travellor, snuffed the spinny away, pulled the main and the loop came out,up with the travellor and back to norm where I don't cleat the main on the upward leg. Worked well and little time lost.

Anyway its not about Greg and in some ways I am sorry I used that as an example, but what people honestly think about the racing advantages of uni v sloop.

If there are appreciable advantages then how do we rectify that or do we just admit defeat and let the solo boats form their own group and sail under their own rules.

Re: Uni vs 2-up.. Who have the racing advantage, and why? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252737
09/26/12 10:32 AM
09/26/12 10:32 AM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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I dont think we should include non-functional equipment issues like cleats jammed open or not installed in this discussion. 10 secs to tie a slip knot is 10 sec too much anyway smile (competition will be halfway down to the bottom mark when the knot is tied and the spi is flying)

The poll dont have enough participants to be representative but the trend there is clearly that two-up have most of the advantages over uni. Except for what input Gilo posted most seem to accept this as a fact and only have "train harder, sail smarter" as strategy to come out on top. What other options do we have?
Personally I dont see that many options within the class rules.

* Segregate unis from two ups?

* Allow different equipment on unis and loose the effortless switch from uni to two-up (which was a very strong selling point for the class in the beginning)?

* Give unis a time advantage when racing and loose "first over the line wins" ease of racing?

* Allow a different mainsail on unis?





Any creative input? Suggestions for improvements on todays percieved situation without impacting the class?

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