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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252767
09/26/12 02:13 PM
09/26/12 02:13 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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its possible to make your own carbon stays, you need to pass the uni fibres inside a length of heat shrink tube and wind them around a thimble at each end, then set the thimble ends in resin and shrink tube to keep it all together.

takes a lot of patience and mucking around... in the end if you value your time then you are much better to buy from someone like easy rigging


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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252772
09/26/12 03:08 PM
09/26/12 03:08 PM
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West coast of Norway
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What about breakage where the stays are rolled around the mast when tacking and jibing? Are there special techniques to handle this or was the issue overrated when "plastic" rigging was new?

I am actually tempted to try to make carbon stays.. If my more conservative building partner is up to it laugh

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252774
09/26/12 04:23 PM
09/26/12 04:23 PM
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macca Offline
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as long as you make sure that the resin hard area is limited to the thimble only (you cant have the unsupported cable stiff from resin) then its fine



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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252778
09/27/12 03:33 AM
09/27/12 03:33 AM
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West coast of Norway
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Hoy Macca,

do you know how they handle carbon diamond wires on masts? What is done on the spreaders to avoid chafe and breakage there?

I have to think a little about how to set up the timbles unless you have some good links. So far a mental exercise but very interesting stuff!

At least now that I hear carbon fibers slowly being introduced as rigging I am certain that synthetic stays is viable and also the way to go for the future smile

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252831
09/28/12 06:28 AM
09/28/12 06:28 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Any piccies out there of these carbon stays ?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252834
09/28/12 07:23 AM
09/28/12 07:23 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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The stays are fine around spreaders, but you need to make a nice piece of carbon or stainless to ensure its a larger surface than the normal wire mounting.

i have been looking for pics, but none with me.

There is another option from maffioli that could be good. its called ultrawire and can be supplied in 3, 3.5 and 4mm sizes in either SK90 and Zylon (PBO) this is a pretty good solution for you guys.


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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252852
09/28/12 05:25 PM
09/28/12 05:25 PM
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Hamburg
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I absolutely agree with Wayne. In short Dyneema isn't right for standing rigging. With Vectran you could solve the problem of creep (pre stretching Dyneema is only marketing blabla). But compared to steel of similar diameter I don't like the softness, although I could never measure a difference in speed (I have no jib). Hence this is very to your like. With a jib I would always go with the stiffest material.
Never used PBO, Carbon or Aramid on my boat. None of them like UV and water, hence need sophisticated protection and one would lose the diameter advantage on small boats.

On small cats, rigging drag is more important than weight (cross-section area depends on diameter in square and drives strength and weight, drag depends on diameter only).
The performance difference to 2.5mm steel (for uni) is more in your mind than on the water for a small cat anyway.

Since three or four years I use synthetic ropes (dyneema) to connect the wires to the mast fitting, so that the steel wire never touches the carbon mast. Makes the boat silent as well.
Never had any failure. The boat is exposed the full season to UV and weather.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252864
09/29/12 03:00 AM
09/29/12 03:00 AM
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West coast of Norway
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Hi Klaus,

what I have observed is that our rigs move about a lot as we sail trough waves. The thinking is to reduce weight aloft to get less inertia from the rig movements and thus get more speed.
The opposite value is increased drag if synthetic materials have a bigger diameter than metal wire.
Are you able to quantify this in a meaningful way? How much will total drag increase if going from 3mm to 5mm stays. The "reduced inertia" factor can be calculated, but how to compare this... I have no clue but I have a feeling smile

Additional advantage could be easier righting for lightweight crews and a small degree of better righting movement.

I dont see why the jib makes a difference in metal vs synthetic rigging? Unless the rigging is really stretching and flexible the forestay will be tightened by the mainsail sheeting loads going upwind.

What is the issue with water and UV on carbon? Is carbon fibers UV degradable? Water degradable? Or are you thinking of the fittings and resins being broken down by UV and galvanic corrosion?

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 09/29/12 03:05 AM.
Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252875
09/30/12 02:27 PM
09/30/12 02:27 PM
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Hamburg
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Hi Rolf,

a moving rigg isn't bad. Actually it has improved aerodynamics. In many dinghi classes "pumping" (e.g. periodical change of the sail inflow conditions or sail angle) if limited or forbidden, because people feel that their seems to be an advantage by doing so.
Hovever if the motion causes excessive hull drag due to splash or nose diving, it can't be good. There are many possibilities to do cure the problem: Hull shape, T-foil rudders and reducing inertia.
Reducing inertia is always good, but unfortunately the standing rigging is only small part of the mast-sail system and this is only a part of the whole boat inertia. Hence the gain by playing with lighter standing rigging is small.
Hull shape has significantly improved in the last years. For example my Javelin sails far smoother in waves than the 4 ft longer Tornado. I would expect similar or even better wave-going behaviour for the F16, becase of the lower mast and lower inertia.
The most efficient way would be a T-foil(ed) rudder. It will not only damp the pitching motion, but transfering the energy from pitching in thrust (negative drag). However in calm water you would have drag penalty.

The advantage of essier rigging is on F16 size boat fairly low. I didn't feel any difference.

The jib makes a difference: From your comment I see that we agree that a sagging jib is not good (especially upwind). If you don't have a too flexible mast the main sheet will keep the forestay tight. But when you react to a puff by opening the main your jib would start to sagg in exactly that situation where you want a flat jib.

Every rope from organic (e.g. plastic, anorganic = metal) suffers from UV and water. The question is how fast.
BTW I know of carbon fiber only used with resin, hence a rod and not a rope. So the UV and water resistance of the resin would be important. It should have some addtitional protection (e.g. PU or wax).

I guess some googleing would reveal you, that
Dyneema is good againbst UV and water (I replace the unbraided dyneema ropes on my boat only once a year), Vectran is used for tugging dipping sonars and on space-exploring vehicles, hence I would think of good resistance as well. Aramid and PBO are on the low end of the table.
I can tell you that Aramid (Kevlar) has so poor water resitance that we don't use it in our business (even not with epoxy resin and PU coating), but an aircraft has a different utilisation of course.

Regarding the drag increase due to diameter, I think I made some calculations already on this forum.
Btw is 5mm a bit much for a single hander?

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252890
10/01/12 04:57 AM
10/01/12 04:57 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Hi Klaus,

nice input!

About moving rigs. I find movement parallel to the sail surface to be unvanted and not comparable to pumping. Reversal of flow can never be good in my opinion. This is the movement (pitching) I think about when discussing movement. Movement in the other axises might be good but force lost due to elasticity does not sound good on a racing sailboat unless there are handling issues.
Stays that are "flexible" to a certain degree would improve on the jib, but starting to design this into the rig is very complex and with uncertain gains in my opinion. I would prefer to pull on some more downhaul and continue running the mainsheet and accept the jib draft increase.


Agree on the T foils! But they dont seem to be "in vouge" anymore.

5mm is probably a bit much but the matieral properties would be the deciding factor.


UV should not be an issue if the fibers are protected by a heat shrink tube. Epoxy is a well known property regarding UV and water. The remaining question is how water affects carbon fibers in the long run.



Very interesting discussion. Thanks for adding to it Klaus!

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252893
10/01/12 08:25 AM
10/01/12 08:25 AM
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Daytona Beach Florida
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Will it make righting any easier once it is wet and has absorbed water?

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Smiths_Cat] #252895
10/01/12 08:55 AM
10/01/12 08:55 AM
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Australia
macca Offline
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Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat
Hi Rolf,

a moving rigg isn't bad. Actually it has improved aerodynamics. In many dinghi classes "pumping" (e.g. periodical change of the sail inflow conditions or sail angle) if limited or forbidden, because people feel that their seems to be an advantage by doing so.
Hovever if the motion causes excessive hull drag due to splash or nose diving, it can't be good. There are many possibilities to do cure the problem: Hull shape, T-foil rudders and reducing inertia.
Reducing inertia is always good, but unfortunately the standing rigging is only small part of the mast-sail system and this is only a part of the whole boat inertia. Hence the gain by playing with lighter standing rigging is small.
Hull shape has significantly improved in the last years. For example my Javelin sails far smoother in waves than the 4 ft longer Tornado. I would expect similar or even better wave-going behaviour for the F16, becase of the lower mast and lower inertia.
The most efficient way would be a T-foil(ed) rudder. It will not only damp the pitching motion, but transfering the energy from pitching in thrust (negative drag). However in calm water you would have drag penalty.

The advantage of essier rigging is on F16 size boat fairly low. I didn't feel any difference.

The jib makes a difference: From your comment I see that we agree that a sagging jib is not good (especially upwind). If you don't have a too flexible mast the main sheet will keep the forestay tight. But when you react to a puff by opening the main your jib would start to sagg in exactly that situation where you want a flat jib.

Every rope from organic (e.g. plastic, anorganic = metal) suffers from UV and water. The question is how fast.
BTW I know of carbon fiber only used with resin, hence a rod and not a rope. So the UV and water resistance of the resin would be important. It should have some addtitional protection (e.g. PU or wax).

I guess some googleing would reveal you, that
Dyneema is good againbst UV and water (I replace the unbraided dyneema ropes on my boat only once a year), Vectran is used for tugging dipping sonars and on space-exploring vehicles, hence I would think of good resistance as well. Aramid and PBO are on the low end of the table.
I can tell you that Aramid (Kevlar) has so poor water resitance that we don't use it in our business (even not with epoxy resin and PU coating), but an aircraft has a different utilisation of course.

Regarding the drag increase due to diameter, I think I made some calculations already on this forum.
Btw is 5mm a bit much for a single hander?

Cheers,

Klaus


Moving rig due to elasticity in the stays is for sure slow. No other way to look at it, just plain slow.

The best way to reduce pitching from weight aloft is to reduce the weight smile The hard part is to achieve that without the drawbacks of some of the cheaper solutions.

On the topic of Vectran and UV..... its a shocker! its been a while since i used the stuff but I recall it was suffering 50% los in strength within weeks of being exposed. Its up there with PBO in that regard.

The thing to remember is that there are some really nice solutions to these problems, like easy rigging who have a nice way to seal the fibres in a watertight and UV proof cover, so the PBO from them lasts a very long time (we use X40 stays like this for more than 5 years)


Also the Maffiloi ultrawire is a good mid range solution too.



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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252909
10/01/12 03:05 PM
10/01/12 03:05 PM
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Hi Rolf,

I have been using 3mm SK-90 Dyneema for about 14 months with out any issues.
What I did learn was that you need to put in your first thimble them stretch the line before measuring and putting on the thimble at the other end.
My biggest complaint is that I can't find SK-90 in 2 or 2.5 mm!

I sorry I have not been keeping up, did you get your boats in the water?

Les

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Hi all,

it looks like synthetic rigging is becoming more and more common in the yachting world. Have the time now arrived for beachcats also to go synthetic?

For our boat I am serious about using synthetic for all stays but keep the diamonds in SS wire.

Earlier it was suggested to keep some SS wire for the sections wrapped around the mast when rotating the mast. Still valid?

I have seen Colligo Marine referenced and SK78Max as one line option. Others?

Anybody with experience or opinions?


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A-Cat USA 49
18Sq 49

member- Royal Society for Making Cool Stuff
Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252910
10/01/12 03:35 PM
10/01/12 03:35 PM
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West coast of Norway
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Thanks for the input Les!

Could you write a small summary of the pros/cons of synthetic rigging as you see it. A load of pictures and some tips on how to rig would also be most welcome smile

No boat in the water yet. Tonight I waterproofed the nuts for the beambolts. Will continue with the rear beam nuts tomorrow night. Then the main and rear deck goes on and we are full on with the accessories like rudder system, sails, dolphin striker etc.
I also worked on the Y axis of my CNC mill conversion so I do some other stuff in addition to the boat build. Every workshop of course needs a small CNC mill..

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #252924
10/01/12 08:44 PM
10/01/12 08:44 PM
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lesburn1 Offline
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Rolf, I'll see what I can do.
RE. the CNC let's see some shots.

Les


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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #253073
10/03/12 03:48 PM
10/03/12 03:48 PM
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West coast of Norway
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Here is a shot of the mill itself with the completed X axis drive fitted.

[Linked Image]


Other shot is from the lathe where the base for the Y axis thrust bearings is machined. Please note the homemade boring bar which I am fairly proud over having built smile

[Linked Image]

Still a fair bit of work to do, but it is a lot of fun!

Attached Files
IMG_0213_small.JPG (1068 downloads)
Mill with completed X axis for CNC
IMG_0214_small.JPG (1109 downloads)
Lathe with Y axis base plate being machined to accept thrust bearings.
Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #253089
10/03/12 09:01 PM
10/03/12 09:01 PM
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lesburn1 Offline
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OK Rolf here goes.

At the mast end I use a T-Ball bail Terminal with two sailmaker thimbles. The thimbles are cut and put on the T-Ball Bail and the weld closed then sand and polish to remove any burrs. Say your T-Ball mounts on the mast at 7 meters, you would mark 16 meter of your shroud material at the half way point and then using a brummel ( http://www.animatedknots.com/brumme...og.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com ) fix the line to the thimble on the T-Ball Bail.
[Linked Image]

After you stretch you line, measure and put the thimbles on the ends of the shrouds, remember to orient the lines as one will want to come off the bail facing back (main shroud ) and the other facing forward (Fore stays). I also attach the trap lines to the thimbles.

[Linked Image]

I hope this helps someone.

Les

Attached Files
2012-10-01_07-39-52_v1.jpg (438 downloads)
T-Ball Bail

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Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #253090
10/03/12 09:23 PM
10/03/12 09:23 PM
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lesburn1 Offline
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It just came to me that you F-16 guys use a single fore stay.
So you would need three thimbles. But this would make the termination a much simpler job.

Les


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A-Cat USA 49
18Sq 49

member- Royal Society for Making Cool Stuff
Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #253096
10/04/12 03:00 AM
10/04/12 03:00 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

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Thanks Les!

Nice and easy! Only complication for a home-shop would be the welding. This could be overcome by using a largish shackle to collect the stays with thimbles and mount them to the mast fitting. My mast does not have the slots for T bail terminals.

Looks very doable!

Re: Has the time arrived for synthetic rigging? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #253097
10/04/12 03:37 AM
10/04/12 03:37 AM
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Rolf,

Do check that the cable thimble and the shackle are compatiable, the bolt eye of the larger shackle needed for 3 stays ( 4 in the case of an A Class rig )will be a tight fit through the 3mm thimble as I discovered.

The other thing I found using SK75 was that under load the Brummel knot locked it off beautifully but under very light loads with slight " jarring " effects, the knot would gradually slip through ( the rope is quite slippery and naturally oily to touch ) and eventually release ( as I also discovered ), I found that simply sewing a couple of loops through the tail section stopped this.

Do check the breaking strain as SK90 is about 1.5 times stronger than wire and you can afford to go down in diameter, I found the larger 4mm seemed to stretch /creep more than the 3mm and sort of reasoned that on first use, the smaller diameter " tightened " the weave of the new rope whereas the 4mm never seemed to really fully close the weave.

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