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Uni boat specification / ideas #252974
10/02/12 11:18 AM
10/02/12 11:18 AM
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waynemarlow Offline OP
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Ok, we generally acknowledge that the Uni boat is a bit disadvantaged, mainly through not having 4 hands and no jib. So if a sub class was to emerge what specifications would we desire.

16 ft seems a good length,
Spinny is it the right size
Mast, do we adopt the A Class knowledge and testing and go for unlimited mast length
Is 2.5 metres the right width.
Do we go for curved boards, they are becoming much more mainstream and costs are coming down
Do we want jibs.
Do we want 15sqm mains.
100kgs or even 90 kgs min weight ?

Just a few thoughts, this is only an academic excercise as the F16 rules are pretty set in stone, more a thinking of desirables, so what would you all want if you owned a dedicated 16ft single hander ?

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Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252975
10/02/12 11:28 AM
10/02/12 11:28 AM
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Timbo Offline
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If I were going to only race Uni, and if we had enough other Uni's to race against....I'd leave it as is, both to keep the costs down and still have the flexability to race it as Sloop or for resale value to a Sloop wannabee.

If money were no object, I'd build it like a full up carbon A cat and just add a spinnaker.


Blade F16
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Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252978
10/02/12 11:38 AM
10/02/12 11:38 AM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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I want a boat able to compete with the two handers in the F16 class. Preferably in the same start smile
Then I want this boat to be ready for two-handed racing in the same class just by adding or removing some simple equipment.

That is what I want.

If I can not have that, I want Glenn Ashby, Nathan Outteridge and some other top fast sailors to go solo against the best two up crews. If I can not have that either I want to win the lottery. smile

When can you deliver Wayne?

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252987
10/02/12 12:42 PM
10/02/12 12:42 PM
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Karl_Brogger Offline
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I'd make it two feet longer.
I'd make it almost a foot wider
I'd lower the minimum weight to about 180lbs, maybe less. What the F, why not.
I'd put a taller rig on it, but keep it uni+spinnaker
I'd put some fancy foils on it, C boards, T boards, L boards, WXYZ boards

I'd no longer have a compliant boat either.


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252988
10/02/12 12:48 PM
10/02/12 12:48 PM
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Timbo Offline
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Dude, you know those new WXYZ boards are illegal in 3 countries, right?

I mean, yeah, they are fast, but at what cost? The best ones are made of Unobtainium, and that stuff is hard to find!


Blade F16
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Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252989
10/02/12 12:56 PM
10/02/12 12:56 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I'll get Tony Starke on the horn. He'll hook me up.


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: Timbo] #252990
10/02/12 01:02 PM
10/02/12 01:02 PM
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waynemarlow Offline OP
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Now guys & gals, this thread is not about keeping it the same as a dual F16, the two are incompatible.

What its about is ideas for a very fast single hander, 16ft long ( although there is a huge argument to just simply go to 17.5ft and that would include all the out dated A's and some current high volume A's built of glass if we kept the same 100kgs weight )that can run under SCHRS handicap and if enough contenders, run with the F16 comps as either a sub class or off their own start.

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252991
10/02/12 01:12 PM
10/02/12 01:12 PM
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Karl_Brogger Offline
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I don't know what it would take staying within the current rules. I think a design with finer hulls, T foils to overcome the skinny hulls. Maybe moving the rig back a bit?

I do know nothing has been designed as a strictly one up boat for the F16's.

A friend and I were talking about the current generation of bendy mast's on A-Cat's and wondering what could be possible there for the F16's.


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252992
10/02/12 01:14 PM
10/02/12 01:14 PM
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Timbo Offline
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Well...I'm pretty sure both Nacra and Hobie have already "Been there, done that" with the Nacra F17 and the Hobie FX One, but neither one caught on, so what makes you think any new -Uni Only- class will catch on? What they should have done was get together and come up with some Uni Spin, F17 type class rules, and both build to the same rules, that might have helped them both sell more boats. They could have both done so with the 20's too, but didn't, now we see fewer and fewer Hobie 20's and I20's.

But does the world really need another, all new, catamaran class?


Blade F16
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Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: Timbo] #252993
10/02/12 01:20 PM
10/02/12 01:20 PM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Originally Posted by Timbo


But does the world really need another, all new, catamaran class?


But of course! The world always needs another catamaran class. It is development and evolution.

As Buckminster Fuller always said: Evolution makes many false starts.

One dead branch of the tree of evolution is actually progress. Then we dont go out on that branch again..

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252995
10/02/12 01:57 PM
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waynemarlow Offline OP
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Forget the current rule set, just design a 16ft boat along similar ideals to the F16 class.

What would I do, a chopped off DNA with inclined 20 degree boards ( C boards would be nice but to keep the cost down ), front beam moved foward slightly to cope with a 14sqm main and 2.5sqm jib, A class mast, 16sqm spinny, 100kgs all up to allow for a glass build.

The FX1 and I17 failed for very obvious reasons, they didn't sail well as a single hander and couldn't sail well with two crew on board and were over weight.

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #252997
10/02/12 02:15 PM
10/02/12 02:15 PM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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With all the F16 history, I feel that this thread would be more suitable in the open forum smile

What matters to me is some room to experiment and some blokes to discuss and also sail with now and then. As such I would prefer a ruleset similar to the A class.

Set a lower weight limit. Limit sailarea and let the other variables be open. I dont see the selling point of such a class though as the A cat holds that niche. The two up/uni option was the big selling point for the F16 class in the beginning. What will single out and make a new class attractive?

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #253004
10/02/12 02:48 PM
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pgp Offline
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Good luck.


Pete Pollard
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'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #253009
10/02/12 04:51 PM
10/02/12 04:51 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I'm kinda with Rolf. Loosen up the rules, but I say that about all classes. But, I don't care to see anything that divides the class.


I'm boatless.
Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #253010
10/02/12 04:55 PM
10/02/12 04:55 PM
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waynemarlow Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
I dont see the selling point of such a class though as the A cat holds that niche. The two up/uni option was the big selling point for the F16 class in the beginning. What will single out and make a new class attractive?

Are we actually talking of another class, I'm not. The F16 class is a good class that caters for alot of needs within the industry, it has a lot of merits for the dual handers, it has a lot of merits for the single handers, it just needs to tweak the rules a bit, but that is another day and another thread.

Back to boat design ideals please.

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #253019
10/03/12 01:29 AM
10/03/12 01:29 AM
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Netherlands
Hans_Ned_111 Offline
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Wayne,

I do see were you want to go and i do think ( speaking on personal opinion ) that the uni can be made a lot quicker but within the F16 class 2 different models ( dim ' s ) except the 16 ft length is asking for more trouble then we are having already at the moment.
It would be a good idea to work it further out but then see it as a replacement for the Fx one or F17 uni.

Hans

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: Hans_Ned_111] #253020
10/03/12 03:31 AM
10/03/12 03:31 AM
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waynemarlow Offline OP
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Do we just accept then that one of the fundamental ideals of our class, that of uni and dual racing equally, is dead and buried and accept that all future comps will be on dual handers, all because asking a few questions may be "asking for more trouble then we are having already at the moment"

We as a class are in a pretty good shape, growing numbers and acceptance by major manufacturers as a box rule to work within, what troubles do we have ?

I personally don't think that many changes are needed and at pretty little cost, hence the direction of this thread or attempted direction, which everyone seems to be taking as a direct threat of another class, chill out everyone, I'm just looking to see what everyone would want to sail as a single hander.

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #253022
10/03/12 03:51 AM
10/03/12 03:51 AM
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Steve Slagle Offline
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I think Karl_Brogger has made some good suggestions - finer hulls, T foils (rudders), and a specialized mast-sail combination for the uni config.

I thought the new A cat fore-aft flexible mast-powerful sail was partly for downwind trapezing. The spinnaker would change that. Rig is still a very important issue and a single-hander can use a more flexible mast.

The one foot wider boat comment could be most easily addressed with allowing beam insert racks - mini versions of the H17 type and removable for 2 up sailing. Would require a rule change, but that is the route I would go....

Taller mast isn't needed, as Uni is advantaged in light wind and overpowered in higher winds. More leverage, wider boat or wings would help there. Curved boards would be neat, but outside class rules and maybe hard for weekend sailors to get the benefit out of. I don't think self tacking jibs add much for a uni sailor, something more to adjust taking your concentration off the big issues. Lower weight is always good, but then you lose the 2 up, class compliant option.

Just thinking "out loud", what I think you wanted.

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #253025
10/03/12 07:44 AM
10/03/12 07:44 AM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Self tacking jib for unis to allow the unis an improved righting movement vs sailarea.


Taller mast for unis which could be used under two-up with a super-long shackel for the halyard to sail connection. This would allow a more efficient mainsail for unis.

As much as I would like curved or angeled boards, that would break the interchange from uni to two-up. However it is getting more and more clear that downwind these boards have an advantage.

Re: Uni boat specification / ideas [Re: waynemarlow] #253026
10/03/12 08:22 AM
10/03/12 08:22 AM
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Timbo Offline
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If I had to change one thing, to make the Uni more competitive, it would be to add the jib. It costs nothing, you already have one in your box, you already have the self tacker, and it's really easy to trim, even single handed.

Sometimes it gets in the way, mostly at the A mark, when you now have to ease the jib, and the track, and the halyard, in addtion to all the other 'crew duties' you have to take care of: hoist and trim the spinnaker/main sheet/traveler/boards/rotator/downhaul strings you have to pull. The jib adds three more strings to pull, both at A and C mark, but going up wind in medium air, you should be able to pass most 2 up Sloops, depending on total crew wt. on each boat.

Now...if you go out alone, with your jib, in say 8knt winds...and an hour later it's blowing 17, you may wish you left it in the box!


Blade F16
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