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Increased weight #254583
11/12/12 05:53 AM
11/12/12 05:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
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Did everyone receive Hans's email this morning?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254585
11/12/12 06:36 AM
11/12/12 06:36 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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A couple of days ago.


I'm boatless.
Re: Increased weight [Re: Karl_Brogger] #254586
11/12/12 07:00 AM
11/12/12 07:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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No


USA 777
Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254587
11/12/12 08:13 AM
11/12/12 08:13 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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I guess he's stepping down because their seemingly is a movement afoot to increase minimum weight.

I can't see that it matters to anyone but the uni sailors and we are a vanishing breed. Hopefully any change would include grandfathering for existing boats.

Last edited by pgp; 11/12/12 08:14 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254588
11/12/12 08:14 AM
11/12/12 08:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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The major manufacturers are trying to push this through..

Re: Increased weight [Re: pitchpoledave] #254589
11/12/12 08:17 AM
11/12/12 08:17 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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I'm sure. But does it matter for the sloops, which constitute the vast majority?

The boutique builders will still build a superior product but with a heavier minimum they will simply be more robust.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254591
11/12/12 08:44 AM
11/12/12 08:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
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T

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Eastern NC, USA
What are the reasons? Cost? Durability? I do not get the emails anymore, but can the email be posted (or is it class info only)?

Last edited by tshan; 11/12/12 08:44 AM.

Tom
Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254593
11/12/12 08:59 AM
11/12/12 08:59 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
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I saw his post on the class website. Since it is a class issue I suggest any discussion be kept over there.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254594
11/12/12 09:02 AM
11/12/12 09:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
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Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
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I certainly can respect that. Hope it works out best for the class.


Tom
Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254595
11/12/12 09:22 AM
11/12/12 09:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
I guess he's stepping down because their seemingly is a movement afoot to increase minimum weight.

I can't see that it matters to anyone but the uni sailors and we are a vanishing breed. Hopefully any change would include grandfathering for existing boats.


Let me see if I understand this correctly:

* F16 Class has a rule for minimum boat weight
* All manufacturers are aware of this rule
* Some manufactures can't, or won't, build their boats to this rule
* Therefore, "these" manufacturers (stated in this thread as *all*) want to increase the minimum boat weight so as not to be *disadvantaged*

And we think that's fair?


USA 777
Re: Increased weight [Re: tback] #254597
11/12/12 09:26 AM
11/12/12 09:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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okay I'll go check out the F16 Class Forum.



USA 777
Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254601
11/12/12 09:43 AM
11/12/12 09:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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this was predicted years ago.. Its very very sad and a bad reflection on the manufacturers.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254602
11/12/12 09:46 AM
11/12/12 09:46 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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(stated in this thread as *all*) Where? I certainly did not say all.

Last edited by pgp; 11/12/12 09:46 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: tback] #254607
11/12/12 10:34 AM
11/12/12 10:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
There are 2 issues..
1st is the cost of addressing warranty issues on lightly built boats so the heavier the less claims.
2nd is the retooling cost.. if the weight of the class is increased then it will potentially create costs for the builders who are already building at minimum.. new extrusions for eg.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254609
11/12/12 10:53 AM
11/12/12 10:53 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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I don't think anyone has weighed a boat in more than two years so I doubt if any are min. weight. The Viper is known to be over minimum and it hasn't hurt the boats performance or sales.

My interest had always been keeping the boat's weight low for ease of movement on the beach so that it would be attractive to single handed sailors but the demand just doesn't seem to be there. Besides, Karl seems to be the most active single hander and he doesn't seem to have any problem with his Viper.

I suspect this will become a non-issue.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254610
11/12/12 10:54 AM
11/12/12 10:54 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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I read the post from Hans on the F-16 forum. It is in the open forum so everybody can read it.

I have more questions after reading the message than before. But I have to wonder what this means
"I will direct resign my job as President of the class and give the job back."
Give the job back to who? I choose to understand this as a resignation from Hans and that the class will have to elect a new president at the next AGM.

About the discussion on increasing weight. This is no surprise. The last iteration of the class rules before they where changed to be ISAF compliant had a safeguard on this. Under these rules (which are now gone) there were a 5 year (?) period where only emergency changes could be done to the rules. This is now down to a one year notice period I see.

I dont remember if it was 3,4 or 5 years, but at least it was several years. The intention was to stop or at least slow down this exact scenario.
From a verbal report a manufacturer argued that they would build overweight and in a certain amount of time they could more or less control the class rules as their boat owners would be the majority and vote in their own best interest.
As a matter of opinion I dont fear this as long as regular sailors of several brands are part of management in the class.

The section on racing under a rating system indicates that the old discussion on racing as an F16 or an F102 (or whatever the rating system name was) still goes on. The only thing I have to say about that is "Full steam ahead with F16 racing".

Some insight on management which I have learnt to be true over the last years is that there will always be competing agendas, hidden agendas, backstabbing and idiots around. Dont accept any management position without being prepared to deal with this and in a strong way. Sometimes a leader have to climb into his tank to have his targets reached. Then there will be some damage left behind.. I say it is time to bring out the tank! But even the armour of a tank will not be enough if exposed to fire too long without support and backups.
One other insight is that technically minded (gifted) people often make poor leaders. The killer instinct and motivation to go through social conflicts to reach the objectives are quite often not there (or the tank is blasted off the battlefield).
The right leader makes all the difference in the world when it comes to management.

Macca and I had some really heavy (and sometimes outright bad) discussions about class rules, weight and changes. Perhaps this is one of the decision points for where the class is headed. Will be interesting to see!

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254611
11/12/12 11:11 AM
11/12/12 11:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
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Am I to conclude you are offering to fill the position?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254612
11/12/12 11:14 AM
11/12/12 11:14 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by pgp
Am I to conclude you are offering to fill the position?


My post was very carefully worded to not open that discussion. I am no class member as I have not paid dues while boatbuilding and I dont want that job. I dont currently have room for that job in my life either. Make your own conclusions, but I hope you end up with a "no"

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254613
11/12/12 11:24 AM
11/12/12 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline OP
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laugh Lots of that going around.

I said over a year ago the F16 class will disappear inside private clubs, at least in the U.S. That seems to be happening because they are the only people who care about the class. It will change as they see fit.

Last edited by pgp; 11/12/12 11:26 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254615
11/12/12 11:28 AM
11/12/12 11:28 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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West coast of Norway
Yeah, ask me how many hours I spend in front of the idiot lantern on average for a week.. Typed this up while cooking dinner, just to give you a hint.

If I change jobs I'll seriously consider running.

Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 11/12/12 11:29 AM.
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