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Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254661
11/12/12 08:46 PM
11/12/12 08:46 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I like Mike's thinking.


I'm boatless.
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Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254662
11/12/12 09:39 PM
11/12/12 09:39 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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Mike?

Cat sailing has been a trade war since the Hobie and Prindle days, probably always will be. If this problem goes away, another will pop up.

Last edited by pgp; 11/12/12 09:40 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: Bob_Curry] #254669
11/13/12 04:46 AM
11/13/12 04:46 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
Raising weight? There goes all the uni wannabees. Ya know, as we age, there is a need for a good lightweight uni/sloop-spin boat. But there is already a ready-to-go heavy sloop class out there--- F18.

Have fun.
BC wink

Yup the higher weight will be a problem for the Uni sailor pushing the boat around the beach, but not on the water where it will make very little difference and in some ways helps the handicap rating. Now a nacra F17 at 140kgs was as I am lead to believe by those who have sailed them, a bit of an early generation dog that didn't do very well ( hence the myriad of sail and mast changes to try and make it work ), Hobie FX1 at 150kgs was not a good boat single handed so I guess we know the limits as to sail area/weight ratios single handed.

Those pushing the higher weight limit have no interest in single handing nor manufacturing a boat suitable as their target market is the lightweight crew of about 140kgs of which there are plenty. With the Olympic boat now being a mixed crew, starting in the F16's rather than the F18's will be a no brainer. Even the lightweight F18 crews will probably drop back to the F16 if racing fleets become big enough to interest them. Out of all this melee the F16 class will be stronger than ever and the F18 fleet smaller than before.

Don't want to say I told you so but this has been coming for some time and I would guess dropping the single handed weight and option of racing single handed can't be far off the agenda.

As I have often discussed in other threads, maybe it is time to produce a dedicated F16HP single handed boat and perhaps a dedicated class to go with it.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254671
11/13/12 05:26 AM
11/13/12 05:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
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Nick F16 Offline
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I agree with mike!

Re: Increased weight [Re: Mike Fahle] #254672
11/13/12 06:02 AM
11/13/12 06:02 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Fahle
I never did understand why owners did not demand the lightest boat that could be built under the rules, especially for the amount they were paying.


Sadly I did understand and have voiced this for some time. If a boat is uncompetitive under SCHRS and Texel at 107 kgs, but is competative at 130kgs without seemingly any loss of speed for carrying those extra 23kgs, then its a no brainer which boat is going to be the one I will spend my money on.

It wasn't our rules persee but the fact that other more powerful outside influences were contradictory to our rules which has caused the problem. I'm pretty sure if the Viper hadn't been as sucessful as it has been in Europe under the handicap ratings, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Re: Increased weight [Re: tback] #254675
11/13/12 09:18 AM
11/13/12 09:18 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
Raising weight? There goes all the uni wannabees. Ya know, as we age, there is a need for a good lightweight uni/sloop-spin boat. But there is already a ready-to-go heavy sloop class out there--- F18.

Have fun.
BC wink


Agree with Bob +1,0000

Disagree with Wayne from a previous post....about AHPC being Top Dog because they have more boats out there that are over weight and should therefore dictate rule changes.....so some of the other manufacturers built to the F16 specs and now we want to punish them with a rule change ... I don't think that's the class I want to be a part of.





Seemingly very few wish to be part of the class. Prior to nationals there were only a half dozen of us who had paid their dues.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254682
11/13/12 12:16 PM
11/13/12 12:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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would increasing the minimum weight allow for those precious few with the skill, time and inclination to home build?

Or can you home build an F16 at current weight minimum?


Jay

Re: Increased weight [Re: waterbug_wpb] #254686
11/13/12 01:41 PM
11/13/12 01:41 PM
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
would increasing the minimum weight allow for those precious few with the skill, time and inclination to home build?

Or can you home build an F16 at current weight minimum?



First plywood boats where already pretty close to min weight back then without Carbon masts and beams.

Taipan glass boats where also very close to min weight.

There is no secret to building light but clean work and careful design under good quality control systems.

Re: Increased weight [Re: tback] #254691
11/13/12 04:50 PM
11/13/12 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tback
Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
Raising weight? There goes all the uni wannabees. Ya know, as we age, there is a need for a good lightweight uni/sloop-spin boat. But there is already a ready-to-go heavy sloop class out there--- F18.

Have fun.
BC wink


Agree with Bob +1,0000

Disagree with Wayne from a previous post....about AHPC being Top Dog because they have more boats out there that are over weight and should therefore dictate rule changes.....so some of the other manufacturers built to the F16 specs and now we want to punish them with a rule change ... I don't think that's the class I want to be a part of.





I have a hard time understanding how the general public can be quite so gullible.
1 manufacturer elects to enter the F16 market on the cheap by recycling their current F18 parts, placing them on a pair or shorter hulls, and then subbing out the build remotely to Asia and then putts a marketing spin on it, telling the world that you “have to have these things to make it cheap and strong”

I am a boat builder, so I cannot begrudge anyone for making money without having to spend a lot, but poor design work and building techniques are not a reason that I would ever consider a valid excuse for a class to change its rules.

Yes in 1 part of the world there is a handicap system that punishes the light weights. Again why would there be a discussion about changing a class just to meet a handicap system that is not universally used, or long term stable.

There are a bunch of internet and whiners complaining about inequality in the class, but I only see that as yet another excuse to not join, as we change that, then there will be something else wrong. If weight is the all important factor, some make it out to be, then shop around and you can purchase a min or very near minimum weight boat from a variety of different builders. If you chose 1 of the heavy models, then that should not be valid reason to punish other owners.

I believe the intent of the F16 was to be an owner’s class, not a manufacturer’s class. I chose to buy a lighter boat because that is what I wanted. I do not care if someone else buys another brand, but it does bother me that they then want to tell me I will have to carry weight, just because their boats builder elected not to build a true F16, but some franken 18 JR

Re: Increased weight [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254694
11/13/12 05:46 PM
11/13/12 05:46 PM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
First plywood boats where already pretty close to min weight back then without Carbon masts and beams.

Taipan glass boats where also very close to min weight.

There is no secret to building light but clean work and careful design under good quality control systems.


Given your comments, I would agree that I'm not quite sure what the rationale is for a heavier boat, other than to beat a rating system.


Jay

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254696
11/13/12 06:02 PM
11/13/12 06:02 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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It doesn't matter. The rank and file don't pay their dues so they aren't class members. They don't get a vote, have no standing to question a vote.

If you're really concerned about it, pay your dues.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: waterbug_wpb] #254697
11/13/12 06:07 PM
11/13/12 06:07 PM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb

Given your comments, I would agree that I'm not quite sure what the rationale is for a heavier boat, other than to beat a rating system.


There was no rationale regarding the handicap system, the Vipers use of F18 parts were simply an economic solution to "dipping ones toes in the water" of F16 sales. By almost an accident it produced a boat that fitted into an antiquated handicap system.

With all the factors of good marketing, a reasonable design, good race results and fitting into a handicap system, the Viper has suceeded where others have failed.

One can think of the VHS and Betamax as a typical example of consumer nievity in not picking the best product.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254700
11/13/12 08:45 PM
11/13/12 08:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 217
Palm Harbor, FL
daniel_t Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Seemingly very few wish to be part of the class. Prior to nationals there were only a half dozen of us who had paid their dues.


I won't be re-uping next year. I paid my dues immediately after buying my boat in January and have received absolutely nothing for it. Not even a "thank you." I take that back somewhat... After several months of complaining, I was eventually allowed to read the private forums...



Daniel T.
Taipan F16 - USA 213
Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254701
11/13/12 08:50 PM
11/13/12 08:50 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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There was a National Championship regatta.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254705
11/14/12 07:07 AM
11/14/12 07:07 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Ask not what the class can do for you. What can you do for the class is the question.. smile


I think this thread have taken a different, positive, direction now. What is expected of the class and what is expected from the members.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254707
11/14/12 08:31 AM
11/14/12 08:31 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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OMG! You're really gonna get it now. I was trying to avoid telling people that if they don't like the way something is being done, perhaps they should get off their butts and do it themselves; or at least pitch in and help. But I decided not to 'cause that's much to inflammatory.

Last edited by pgp; 11/14/12 08:31 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254708
11/14/12 09:17 AM
11/14/12 09:17 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Originally Posted by pgp
OMG! You're really gonna get it now. I was trying to avoid telling people that if they don't like the way something is being done, perhaps they should get off their butts and do it themselves; or at least pitch in and help. But I decided not to 'cause that's much to inflammatory.



I have the (sometimes) advantage of not having english as my native language. I must have pressed one of those buttons which are unknown to those not natively speaking english or living in an english speaking culture.. Becouse I dont see how what I wrote would be inflammatory. There were no accusations in my statement, unless some decides to interpret&compile what I wrote as accusatory. If anybody feels accused of not contributing that was certainly not the intention of my post.


Some sailors expressed that they are not seeing much benefit in being class members. I think being a class member means that you will get some benefits of being a member, and also that this puts an obligation on the individual class members. My question was really as simple as that. If it is unclear what is expected in this mutual relationship, no wonder that there is frustration or perhaps even worse, indifference.

I think I will take this to a different thread..

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254713
11/14/12 09:34 AM
11/14/12 09:34 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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I made a new "class neutral" thread for discussing expectations and deliverables regarding classes and class memberships in the open forum..

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=254712

Please, lets take the discussion there.

Re: Increased weight [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #254714
11/14/12 10:06 AM
11/14/12 10:06 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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It was a joke, sarcasm! Few people are will to do the work necessary for a viable class association, yet almost all are willing to complain if the class doesn't operate as they feel it should.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Increased weight [Re: pgp] #254715
11/14/12 10:11 AM
11/14/12 10:11 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Sarcasm? On the internet??!! You got to be kidding.

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