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Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Tony_F18] #255514
12/06/12 06:43 AM
12/06/12 06:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline OP
enthusiast
Baltic  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Originally Posted by Tony_F18
Is there a way to see the results of the poll?


Tony, how does the dutch class association determine how to vote in Paris?


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
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Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255559
12/07/12 10:23 AM
12/07/12 10:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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I am not entirely sure what the procedure is, or even if they're is any to begin with (could be wrong though).

Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255587
12/08/12 04:44 PM
12/08/12 04:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
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F-18 5150  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
With Curved boards on e the table would that include straight canted boards and Asym design boards? Whaat about L boards like the Viper and C2 have as an option.

That flying Tiger got an extra 10 knots foiling so 7 grand for 10 knots on a Tiger?


Richard Vilvens
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Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255588
12/08/12 06:03 PM
12/08/12 06:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Cheap speed there


I'm boatless.
Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255595
12/09/12 06:49 AM
12/09/12 06:49 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 16
M
Mamaloe Offline
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Posts: 16
As far as I know curved daggerboards for the F18 are not on the agenda.

I think the agenda point is about the observation that in the today's handicap rating systems (e.g. Texel), the form of the boards is not a factor affecting the rating. This is disadvantageous for the F18 when it competes at for instance Round Texel (e.g. Nacra F20, F17).

Over the past few years we have seen the changes in handicap formulae pretty consistently 'hurting' the F18's rating.

Rating committees are 'behind the curve' so to speak on curved boards; that's hurting the F18, and should be addressed a.s.a.p.



Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Mamaloe] #255598
12/09/12 11:22 AM
12/09/12 11:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Thanks for the clarification.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Mamaloe] #255617
12/10/12 09:35 AM
12/10/12 09:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Mamaloe
As far as I know curved daggerboards for the F18 are not on the agenda.

I think the agenda point is about the observation that in the today's handicap rating systems (e.g. Texel), the form of the boards is not a factor affecting the rating. This is disadvantageous for the F18 when it competes at for instance Round Texel (e.g. Nacra F20, F17).

Over the past few years we have seen the changes in handicap formulae pretty consistently 'hurting' the F18's rating.

Rating committees are 'behind the curve' so to speak on curved boards; that's hurting the F18, and should be addressed a.s.a.p.




The agenda items is pretty vague:

18. To discuss Formula 18 handicap regarding curved Dagger board


Some could argue that the class needs curved dagger boards to better compete in handicap racing. I know it makes me feel unclean to even type that statement but the point is the agenda item is very vague and I'd really like to see what this item really is. As stated though, it's just a talking point at the meeting as you said.

Didn't they just make the F18 rating faster!? If the intent of the curved dagger board discussion is for the International class to go to the various handicap committees and petition that all the curved dagger boats get a rating hit I really think that is is going to fall on deaf ears. I'd also be a little disappointed to find out the IC is getting distracted by handicap racing.

I'll let you in on a little secret regarding handicap ratings... they rate the talent not the equipment.

Oh and the argument that handicap racing results are hurting or helping the class is rubbish! When was the last time a Hobie 16 won Texel? Yet strangely the class survives. Please please please lets not get sucked into the handicap racing vortex.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
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Re: curved dagger boards [Re: David Ingram] #255618
12/10/12 10:33 AM
12/10/12 10:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
M
mini Offline
member
mini  Offline
member
M

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
Originally Posted by David Ingram
The agenda items is pretty vague:

18. To discuss Formula 18 handicap regarding curved Dagger board


Some could argue that the class needs curved dagger boards to better compete in handicap racing. I know it makes me feel unclean to even type that statement but the point is the agenda item is very vague and I'd really like to see what this item really is. As stated though, it's just a talking point at the meeting as you said.

Didn't they just make the F18 rating faster!? If the intent of the curved dagger board discussion is for the International class to go to the various handicap committees and petition that all the curved dagger boats get a rating hit I really think that is is going to fall on deaf ears. I'd also be a little disappointed to find out the IC is getting distracted by handicap racing.

I'll let you in on a little secret regarding handicap ratings... they rate the talent not the equipment.

Oh and the argument that handicap racing results are hurting or helping the class is rubbish! When was the last time a Hobie 16 won Texel? Yet strangely the class survives. Please please please lets not get sucked into the handicap racing vortex.



The calculator is being revised again now. As Dave points out - the adjustment is to make the formula match the racers results.

The discussion of a formula based system is basically BS. The A class long ago left handicap sailing where they used this, as the correction factor for them was so severe, there was no way they could ever correct out. Note the A class is going strong worldwide without having to tag along with some handicap system.

Currently there is no adjustment in the calculator for curved foils. If this falt in the calculator stands another season (and you think there is an advantage to having curved foils) then this would be a free ratings basher - like they need another one of those.

You guys have a strong class, why is there any discussion about screwing it up for some moving target. I though that was the whole point of a formula/box rule class was to have equalracing in a fleet that was not subject to the whims and problems of the handicap racing.

Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255622
12/10/12 11:05 AM
12/10/12 11:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Handicap racing isn't something the F18 class needs to be worried about. Most racers don't really care that much either (ex: Alter Cup). Besides, the F18 is the reference boat under some handicap systems (SCHRS).

The more important question the class should be asking is how to handle future development. Besides continued sail and aluminum mast section improvements, it could be argued the class is tapped out on gaining performance through hull shape and current foils within the existing rules. I think that is just fine and I bet the majority of sailors would agree, but there is always the concern that some wiz bang new boat shows up on your beach and beats you to the bar a few miles away.


Scorpion F18
Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255624
12/10/12 11:51 AM
12/10/12 11:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
Sam,
Lots of F18 sailors attend regattas like Texel with the intentions of winning, therefore the handicap system is very important. We don't need to worry about it a lot but it is something we have to keep up to date. I believe Eurocat and some other major regattas also have a distance race that's scored on handicap? Not to mention our little races over here.
I disagree with your perception that the class is tapped out with hull shape and current foils. Boats all have different chord lengths, shapes, and etc. If it was tapped out everyone would be using the same blade. In addition, manufacturers are still toying around with where the best placement of the board is. While the boat is most user friendly with it at the shroud, it's still not known if that is the fastest place to have your board. There's even been talk about having it in front of the beam but no ones figured out how to keep the load off the rudder in this situation. But if someone could who knows if it would be faster.
All the developments coming through these days are minor but that's what is keeping the class alive. I definitely wouldn't say the development is done anywhere, but it is hard to imagine any kind of game changer coming along which is exactly how we want it.

Re: curved dagger boards [Re: wildtsail7] #255634
12/10/12 01:30 PM
12/10/12 01:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
if the daggar is in front of the beam, where would the boat pivot for a tack/gybe? seems like it would cause a big swing in the stern... although I'm just thinking more of the image of a rear-steering bicycle...


Jay

Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255636
12/10/12 01:39 PM
12/10/12 01:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Maybe the rudders should be in front of the beam. Or rudders on both ends.


I'm boatless.
Re: curved dagger boards [Re: wildtsail7] #255647
12/10/12 07:40 PM
12/10/12 07:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
I care a little about handicap since that's what I'm racing during the week. Never found a system that everyone feels is fair so I just drink more beer and accept the results for what they are. I do realize Round Texel and other big distance races use ratings and the results do matter. Still, we know how that ended up over here...friends don't let friends race handicap!

Some valid points on the boat design, people are still pushing the limits but many of the designers are really looking at more exotic foil+hull shape combinations and I wonder how much trickle effect we'll be benefiting from. Btw the shared lift concept was tried about 20 years ago and never proven faster. Phantom designers tried it and said it was slower. Maybe if someone keeps at it for a decade like sail rocket it'll work out but I'm not counting on it.

Last edited by samc99us; 12/10/12 07:40 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255658
12/11/12 04:47 AM
12/11/12 04:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
The Phantom was quicker in a straight line with the boards further forward but it was harder to manage on the start line and when tacking.


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Re: curved dagger boards [Re: samc99us] #255662
12/11/12 09:22 AM
12/11/12 09:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by samc99us
Never found a system that everyone feels is fair so I just drink more beer and accept the results for what they are.


How many can say (truthfully) that they sail their boat to the rating?


Jay

Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255673
12/11/12 01:41 PM
12/11/12 01:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Tony_F18  Offline
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So what about F18s with curved boards AND a wing? wink
[Linked Image]

Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Tony_F18] #255678
12/11/12 03:57 PM
12/11/12 03:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
is that boat in the background single-handing the 18 wing?


Jay

Re: curved dagger boards [Re: Baltic] #255679
12/12/12 04:31 AM
12/12/12 04:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Tony_F18  Offline
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No I think that just the angle of the camera.

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