Thousands?

Our chairman told me, the german association represents about 20% of the votes in Paris. We are about 200, which means that around 1000 sailors are members of the national associations. How many non-organized sailors are out there sailing F18 is up to speculation - a few hundred?

I just spoke to a member of the technical committee and there are currently around 1500 fully paid up members worldwide.

there are 3 in Hawaii. unpaid members

Officially, you can find the class report there:
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/F182013ClassReport-[14362].pdf

The question is: 200 ISAF plates means 200 brand new F18 in 2012 ?
I'm waiting for the answer and like to know the repartition between nations and builders.

In France the most numerous fleet (24 slot for Grossetto, 17 slots for NED and 10 for USA) the F18 fleet developpment is now very low.


Class report official figures for 2012:
(1) FRA: 280 members (not boat... )
(2) NED: 200
(3) GER: 162
(4) ITA: 134
(5) USA: 134
(6) AUS: 082
(7) ARG: 072

You can create 10 brand new F18 design by year, open concept and others "I made it in my garage".
You can win a World Championship (indeed the sailors did).
The confidence is gone.

And for experimented sailors in old, (fast and wise ) F18 nations the key question is:
What is the interest of the F18 if the boat performance are not similar ?

F18 are expensive toys now (>20.000 euros approx. 25.000 USD) and more than this, their life cycle are as long as iphone ones.
That is a serious issue.

Thanks to, big hull, long daggerboard, paint on the hull and others "pushing the limit attitude".
That is not the good tempo for crisis time.
Unhappily, that cannot been stopped. I hope it will be soon.

Do not give up Olivier and please play with James and Don to protect our class from " technical developpment pusher".

By the way I think the class rules should follow the members weight, instead of thin sails and sail maker interest.
Very large sails (5 m2 jb and 23 m3 spi) for happy F18 sailors over 80 kg each, that will be a smart way.

Franc,

Please go purchase a Dart or a H16 and sail SMOD.
You will find even here there are constant if not so large of changes. The top level of competition still spend huge money to have new equipment.

I recognize the sales pitch for the F18 class is equality because of the rules, but you are finding this a problem now, why? You have people involved and the largest rule book in the world will not stop people from trying to gain an edge if there competition involved. More rules typically drive cost not the other way around.

Mini,

You forget Nacra 17 for the choice and the fact that Tornado disappear because of uncontrolled evolution.

I sail F18 till 1994, and you ?
You miss the point, the point is not more rule, it is simply to apply the rules.

The spirit of the F18 rule is real sport when the boats are as similar as possible.
If you need a faster boat to be ahead I suggest to improve your sailing skills.


Do not forget that Formula 18 was created, in France, in order to prevent technical "arms race" in technical cat.
This is the key of the F18 success.

The more you're twisting the rule, the more people think F18 is no more fair.
F18 is not A class nor C class. It is close class rules.

Franck, what makes you think that F18s designs are no longer close together in terms of performance.
None of the new designs of the last few years has shown to be significantly faster than the existing ones, some probably not even faster at all.

Tony

I tend to slightly disagree on your second point. While we may not have seen new designs as 'disruptive' as the Capricorn at the time (quickly followed by the Infusion) during the past few years, I would say that the latest designs still tend to outperform - albeit arguable in a narrower range of conditions.

At the same time my impression is that the current performance gaps between models are now so narrow that not many of us F18 sailors think that they can only have fun and do well in regattas if they buy the latest that's out there.

My experience is that F18's have become even more fun to sail then before.

This is the result of continuous development, which over time has led to a steady improvement in not only speed, but also on other important points like handling and 'safety': newer designs - including the Infusion - are less vulnerable to cartwheeling as result of increased hull volume and better bottom shapes.

Also, my impression is that product quality has improved over time (albeit sometimes with hick-ups).

The combination of class rules and the force of competition have led to great progress in the class thus far, with its sailors reaping the benefits.

I look forward to seeing you again during our spring regatta!

Ad

Tony

I tend to slightly disagree on your second point. While we may not have seen new designs as 'disruptive' as the Capricorn at the time (quickly followed by the Infusion) during the past few years, I would say that the latest designs still tend to outperform - albeit arguable in a narrower range of conditions.

At the same time my impression is that the current performance gaps between models are now so narrow that not many of us F18 sailors think that they can only have fun and do well in regattas if they buy the latest that's out there.

My experience is that F18's have become even more fun to sail then before.

This is the result of continuous development, which over time has led to a steady improvement in not only speed, but also on other important points like handling and 'safety': newer designs - including the Infusion - are less vulnerable to cartwheeling as result of increased hull volume and better bottom shapes.

Also, my impression is that product quality has improved over time (albeit sometimes with hick-ups).

The combination of class rules and the force of competition have led to great progress in the class thus far, with its sailors reaping the benefits.

I look forward to seeing you again during our spring regatta!

Ad

Tony

I tend to slightly disagree on your second point. While we may not have seen new designs as 'disruptive' as the Capricorn at the time (quickly followed by the Infusion) during the past few years, I would say that the latest designs still tend to outperform - albeit arguable in a narrower range of conditions.

At the same time my impression is that the current performance gaps between models are now so narrow that not many of us F18 sailors think that they can only have fun and do well in regattas if they buy the latest that's out there.

My experience is that F18's have become even more fun to sail then before.

This is the result of continuous development, which over time has led to a steady improvement in not only speed, but also on other important points like handling and 'safety': newer designs - including the Infusion - are less vulnerable to cartwheeling as result of increased hull volume and better bottom shapes.

Also, my impression is that product quality has improved over time (albeit sometimes with hick-ups).

The combination of class rules and the force of competition have led to great progress in the class thus far, with its sailors reaping the benefits.

I look forward to seeing you again during our spring regatta!

Ad

would you opine that the newer models have a narrow performance gap versus the older models?

Would this make it harder for an average team to sail to the boat's potential?

If that is indeed the case (narrow groove), would the older boat (with a lower peak performance level but wider groove) sail better for a less practiced team than a newer model sailed out of the groove? If I am always "out of the groove" I suspect I'd be a bit slower...

Jay

With 'gap' I mean that (to me) there does not seem to be a big difference between latest models if you average out their performance across the conditions spectrum. But the advantage of latest models seem to be concentrated in certain conditions (higher winds, rougher sea state, down wind especially).

I do prefer those boats which handle better and cartwheel less when it blows and waves are high and steep. Probably that means that in these conditions those models are easier to sail closer to their potential.

Other than that, I cannot really opine whether the groove range of the latest models are different than the older ones - I am not even sure whether that is actually a valid concept. Maybe the experts can chip in here.

Ad

Tony,

The fact that boat builders need to change almost every year till 5/6 years or they disappear: see the Diam exit, MK2, C2 daggerboard, Wild Cat sail set.... This continuous changing is the a good indicator.

F18 is not F1 racing or C class, it is low tech catamaran with restricted material.
The idea is to make sport.
Not ingeneer studies or PHD work on fluid mechanic. F18 is not America Cup.


By the way developpment is money and the customer finally pay.
If Nacra, Hobie or AHPC were ready to pay top gun sailor to sail (and win ?) on Tiger, Capricorn or Infusion MK1.
It would be à good way to spend money also and may answer your question.

F18 are not smartphones.
Boat are now easier and faster, it's nice but developpement is not the purpose of F18.
It is a close class rules. A class, C class made evolution part of the game.

Add to this, paint boat, thin sail wich are details that make difference and contribute to create two F18 fleet.
As a rider which is the interest to be faster ?
in 2012 new boat plaques provided to builders in 2012 drop more than 35% worldwide... that is a consequence of this bad evolution of the F18.

Franck, see my post in the other thread. Maybe some time in the good old U.S.A where we still have some freedoms would do you good...

Yes, the intent was probably never to spend gobs of money on design and cfd, but that is what has happened already (and I bet most of the CFD was done for low cost because most all the designers sail these boats, so have an interest in building the fastest possible).

Continuous upgrades with respect to sails are in the best interest of the class as a whole. Otherwise you get sail designs that are 10+ years outdated!!! Do you still want to be using a pintail sail on your F18???

You have to buy new sails every year to be competitive anyway. Why not have THE OPTION to buy sails that are lighter??? If you feel heavier sails are more durable and will last longer, then that OPTION will still be there.

Sam,

Obviously you miss the point of F18. The idea is not to have high tech boat (no foils, no carbon , heavy cat, no wings), but to have similar boat to have close race where sailing skills are the key of the game.

If you want tech dev, A class or C class are much more open.

The success of F18 till 1994 is based on this close class rules formula. That was the original purpose I can produce some doc (in french I'm sorry) to prove that.

Big hull, long daggerboard, paint and now thin sails increased F18 price and more than this the life cycle of those expensive toy are close to smartphone one.
And the customer paid the developpment...

That may explain a great part of a drop more than 35% of new boat plaques provided to builders in 2012 worldwide.

More than this, a faster boat than the one next to you on the start line, does not mean more fun.

Go back to 1994 then, Im sure you will find NOBODY wants to go with you and sail dart hawks again....

F18 is a development class, it has been from the very first discussion many years ago and as long as we can stop you and your idiot mates from screwing the class up it will remain so for ever.

Perhaps the reason there are less plaques created last year is to do with the continuing financial stress in the largest F18 market (Europe) and the worlds being held in the USA. Plus the fact that there are some interesting classes emerging such as F16 and the Nacra 17, these boats all cost similar money and offer similar performance.

The F18 class offers a great mix of competition and development, if you had your way we would all be sailing boats and sails from almost 20 years ago!

This class has been such a success because of the continued development and its ability to keep relevant with the current state of sailing, lets make sure this continues.

Andrew, read again what I write and try to understand, then answer.

The 2 exemples you use, show that you did not have the big picture.

F16 is in difficulty because they do not close enough their rules (weight minima is the main issue) and on the same size and concept -invented by Loday with the Spitfire- the AHPC Viper (very close boats indeed) are a real success.

Nacra 17 is SMOD, isn't it ?

So you should understand now that sailors will go where their money is protected of crazy developpment, which cost and then customers pay.

May be you need paint stiffer boat, lighter sails or others performance bonus to be in front of the fleet.
That is not F18 spirit. The value of the F18 game is on sailing skills.

More than this, your position is because you're in F18 business.
So your words are not so reliable.
Mr Udin and you said one year ago than paint and hull were only to make cheaper boats.
What a joke.
Last december Mr Udin admit that is was to replace gelcoat dead weight.
Oooops.

GC32 are great boats, do you accept development in this series

Every time we have multiple people telling you that you are out of line with your views you seem to get more out of touch with reality.

As I said in the other thread: I am done wasting my time with you, its a total waste of time and energy arguing with you. Unfortunately you are a logic free zone.

Andrew,
I know it is hard for you to make responses with logic. No problem indeed
The most important is not to change your mind, but that readers can have 2 different advices.
Have a good day.

Franck

So everyone else is wrong and you are right!

This is my last post to you because it feels good to stop banging my head against the wall. There is no point in communicating with you. You don't listen to reason and are totally out of touch with reality.

2 or 3 people are not everybody. You can think in a different way, no problem. Forum interest for reader is they know there is not only one speech. Be careful not to stay alone with your faster last tech F18. :-)

Franck, it's everybody.

John, I do not think so. You can think another way and it's ok (better ?) if you have an argumentation. If not, you can focus on a personn, this is another level. Your choice

I've been during 6 years french association money man. During this time wih the french board the association go from 95 members to 280 members as to be the first association in the world.

We make mistake but also good thing, I think, for the class.
I quite because other duties and now elected as administrator of the french MNA (Olivier and Pierre Charles created the F18 under the umbrella of french MNA).
So I confess I'm always concerned by F18 and also with 3 sons and myself on the F18 french ranking list.


More important than this, what say Jay Glaser on the item of sail should be listened carefully.

Everyone in the virtual room knows what you think, Franck. And people would listen to sailors like Jay if you would pipe down. Your attitude and résumé-recitation suck all the oxygen out of the conversation - you make it pure drudgery to slog through these threads. Though you're unlikely to take anyone's counsel aside from your own, I'd recommend you set aside the keyboard for a while.

The exact figures is -37% new boat plaques provided to builders in 2012 worldwide , so sorry then for the oxygen John.

Franck, you are implying that the reason less new boats have been sold is due to some brand coming up with longer
daggerboards, or someone using paint instead of gelcoat?!
Just in the news today I heard France going back into a recession, for most people sailing is not high on the top of their list of priorities right now.

According to the ISAF annual report the price of new boats are still the same as they where in 2011-2012 anyway (€21K).
IMHO what is hurting the class more is the nontransparent/indecisive decision making process regarding class rules,
first with the paint and now this business with sails.
The F18 committees have to do a better job at (publicly) substantiating their decisions (reports, research, etc).

Anyway, according to your logic the low-tech Nacra 6.0, Hobie Tiger, and Inter 18 would still be biggest classes?

Tony, the drop is worldwide.
Hard to say the part due to economic situation and faster F18 tendancy.
One thing is sure this performance pushing situation does not help to buy new boat.
When you said the responsability is on F18 committees, it's like to say there is a robbering and it is only police fault.

F18 replace Nacra 6.0 and Inter 18, used Tiger because of a good concept.
In 2012 the Hobie 16 was the largest numerous fleet in France.
So may be that is an answer to your question.

I think the sale of new boats is only a small portion of evaluating overall fleet strength. As has been mentioned, many factors can impact new boat sales, not the least of which is global economic uncertainty.

What is important is to see the large fleet growth in new countries like Argentina and Chile, fleet growth in the United States, a strong US worlds, the first American Continental Championship being planned, a bid to host worlds from Oman, etc.

The F18 class has fortunately grown into a truly worldwide class, it can no longer be viewed and governed like it just exists in France. I have huge amounts of respect for those who worked incredibly hard to form and develop what I am enjoying today, but now class decisions must be made in an international manner.

Class report official figures for 2012:

(1) FRA: 280 members (old and new boat)
(2) NED: 200
(3) GER: 162
(4) ITA: 134
Europe: 776

(5) USA: 134
(6) AUS: 082
(7) ARG: 072
Americas: 288

If we consider the population of Americas, it is obvious life cycle "product" F18 isn't at the same stage in Europe and Americas.
That explain the different feeling about the evolution.

To be optimistic I think experience of the updated Tiger is a good story.
To follow that said John, I let you breath ;-)
Exchange point of view, is a part of good making for class decisions.