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New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes #256394
01/18/13 04:40 PM
01/18/13 04:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline OP
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Darryn  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Definitely worth a look, more accurate then the last version, confirm what I see on the race course and my own yardstick system. Referring to cats only.

http://www.yachtingvictoria.com.au/?Page=64117&MenuID=Sailing_%40_Boating%2F21673%2F0%2F%2COTB%2F10638%2F0%2F

Darryn
Bullet,
1782

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256403
01/19/13 05:03 AM
01/19/13 05:03 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
stillbitten Offline
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stillbitten  Offline
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Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
Hi Darryn,

long time no hear, I guess the big question with these new YV Cat yardsticks is what information are they based on?

It seems that Kurnell Cat club has constructed them, but what are they based on, they don't have Mossies sailing at that club and if it is a measured handicap, what Mossie did they measure? Their size for the spinnaker on the spinnaker Mozzie is wrong for a start, you can't fit a F16 spinnaker on a Mozzie the mast is 1m shorter and the pole is at least .5m shorter. Wouldn't the starting point be to contact the Mossie association to find out what size the spinnaker is, based on the class rules!

As far as giving the sloops a faster yardstick, there are no results ever that place a sloop with spinnaker ahead of a cat rig, there have been 7 Vic state Titles for Spinnaker Mossies and cat rigs have won every one. Without spinnaker you can look at the times for the first Cat and Sloop Mossie across the line at Nationals for the last few years and I think it is pretty even, so why would a sloop be rated faster?

I am not saying that the Mossie yardstick is correct as it is, but I question the premise on which it has been changed.

Just recently at the YV Vic Cat Champs, Mossies (one of which was Bob) where conclusively beaten by Paper Tigers on the old YV yardsticks, but Paper Tigers have not been changed, so how does that work!

I think the Mosquito Association needs to contact YV and ask them, what is the basis on which the handicaps have been changed.

The Mossie Yardstick may or may not be correct, but rating a sloop faster will only reduce their numbers further, as most Mossies race in mixed fleets and rely on yardstick for results.





Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: stillbitten] #256425
01/20/13 04:17 PM
01/20/13 04:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Tim_Mozzie Offline
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Tim_Mozzie  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 943
East Gippsland, Australia
Hi Darryn

You're seeing some very different stuff on your race course to what I'm seeing!

At the last McCrae cat champs, in the overall results between Mosquitos with Spinnaker, Taipans, A-classes, F18s and Vipers, Gary on a Mosquito with a spinnaker was beaten into second by Chris Boag on a Taipan 4.9 cat rig by one point - a very close result. Apparently this was taken into account when the Mosquito with spinnaker yardstick was dropped 3 points and the Taipan 4.9 cat raised half a point - where's the logic?

Gary is quite right - sloops with spinnakers have never been able to beat cats with spinnakers except in very rare individual races. The sloops with spinnakers could be rated slower.

The reason the non spinnaker sloop has been rated faster is that only the Mannering Park, Portarlington and Rivolli Bay Nationals have been looked at - 2 out of 3 having a decent breeze and suiting the sloops.

But this is in line with the stated objective of the new yardsticks to apply in 15+ knots of breeze. Previously the yardsticks were supposed to provide a fair result on average over a range of conditions. These new yardsticks are a different type of yardstick to what we are used to.

Clubs are supposed to adjust the yardsticks themselves for light winds. Having 'optimised' the yardsticks for 15+ knots I think it would have been better if YV had also provided a set of yardsticks for light winds (like the USSailing system), instead of leaving clubs to figure it out for themselves.


Tim Shepperd
Mosquito 1775
Karma Cat
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256428
01/20/13 08:35 PM
01/20/13 08:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 77
Gippsland Lakes
mitchellsailor Offline
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mitchellsailor  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 77
Gippsland Lakes
WOW! Even weirder that with the taipan they specifically become an F16 and have the same handicap between sloops and cats when adding the spinnaker. 8 rating points to add a kite! why bother having 3 different A class ratings only to completely ignore the intricacies of other classes. and based on 15+ knot days but we rate even to a Hobie 16 cat rig?


Mosquito 1750 Bonnie-GLYC / Peninsula

The plan was simple.... Like my brother in law Phil, except this plan just might work!
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Tim_Mozzie] #256431
01/20/13 10:48 PM
01/20/13 10:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline OP
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Darryn  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
Originally Posted by Tim_Mozzie
Hi Darryn

You're seeing some very different stuff on your race course to what I'm seeing!



Hi Tim and Gary,
I am sure I see different boats to you guys, tend to have the older classes over here to race against. The Arrows with their newly introduced square top main are a bit quicker which I had picked up using my yardstick system and have now dropped 3. The Taipans we have here aren't being sailed by the top guys in that fleets so I am pleased that their yardstick increased slightly and mine dropped by 1 to close up the gap some. Windrush super sloop dropped significantly which again I agree with as we are seeing some of the foam boats making their way to SA. The sloop Mozzie dropping to 82 with the cat at 83 also works for me as I find them hard to get past and leave behind in wind strengths above 15 knots but they can get in front of me then cruise around covering me, now they have to work for the win, better racing.
As for the spinnaker stuff I leave that in your hands, obviously I know stuff all about that and if you say you have been robbed then I believe you.
I think the older A's have been hard done by and the Yvonne should have come down by the same amount as cat Mozzie to keep them relative to each other, seems to work at present but the Yvonnes are getting quicker too so maybe I would shave that 0.5 off them in the next revision.
Whoever does the VYC yardsticks seems to have an understanding of SCHRS both the advantages but also the slaughter that pin head fine bowed catamarans would suffer if that system was applied.
So, overall, for the racing I do in SA, I think they are an improvement. Sorry you guys dont, I am sure if you make your reasons known they will be taken into account in the next revision.
Now the challenge is to get clubs to use the latest version rather then the version which gives the advantage to the class which predominantly sails at that particular club.
cheers,
Darryn

Last edited by Darryn; 01/21/13 04:46 PM. Reason: spelling errors, sure i didnt get them all
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256432
01/21/13 12:36 AM
01/21/13 12:36 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 416
Matt_Stone Offline
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Matt_Stone  Offline
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Posts: 416
another issue is the tornados, they cant beat anyone around the coarse now with the old yardstick at 65 and now 61! and the f16's didnt even move!

Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256451
01/21/13 04:07 PM
01/21/13 04:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Rye, Victoria
air_apparent Offline
journeyman
air_apparent  Offline
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Posts: 80
Rye, Victoria
looks like I'll be selling the kite and changing to cat rig
sorry kate looks like you've been thrown off ...


Gordon Hyde
Air Apparent
1520
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256456
01/21/13 06:30 PM
01/21/13 06:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 50
Brisvegas | QLD
drew_mac Offline
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drew_mac  Offline
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Posts: 50
Brisvegas | QLD
Those changes hit hard.
Will seriously consider just sailing cat rig now and probably need new boat sooner rather than later.

Maybe I need a new skipper first.

The penalty for kite will be too hard to overcome unless it is a specific course which has significant downwind advantage.
Not many of those around......

Funny how the change of a few numbers can impact the value of a class.

If they are going to provide various A class ratings, what about a timber or glass mossie rating?

Maybe I should go buy a hobie 16.....


Drew....TOAST..1816....furr_ball..1635
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Matt_Stone] #256457
01/21/13 09:04 PM
01/21/13 09:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Aido  Offline
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Posts: 242
Brisveagas
F16s dropped 2 points.

I dont know how its affected the Mossie. I see that SCHRS or what ever it is has been used to calculate a few adjustments. I pretty sure that this system is pretty harsh on light boats.

My other class the Arrow has dropped 3 points. Hard to make up in a 14 footer. but we'll see how it works when we race under the new system. Yardstick racing shouldnt be taken as seriously as class racing and shouldn't be a reason to change or upgrade your boat. Thats my opinion anyway.


Aido
Viper 288
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256458
01/21/13 10:00 PM
01/21/13 10:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 50
Brisvegas | QLD
drew_mac Offline
journeyman
drew_mac  Offline
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Brisvegas | QLD
Unfortunately I sail mixed fleet 99% of the time and therefore race on yardstick.
Have no choice in Qld as no other mossies.
There are maybe two others about to sail now, will see how we go.
It is what it is and only a number.



Drew....TOAST..1816....furr_ball..1635
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256459
01/22/13 04:45 AM
01/22/13 04:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 87
Gold Coast QLD
Damo Offline
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Damo  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 87
Gold Coast QLD
Hang in there Drew, Brett is on the water now, Dave is sailing at Wivanhoe, and mine ill be on the water soon. 4 Mozzies in south east QLD is a start. :-)


Damien 1820 Raw Prawn (under construction)!!!
QLD
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256460
01/22/13 04:52 AM
01/22/13 04:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
gold coast
F
fast energy Offline
member
fast energy  Offline
member
F

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 104
gold coast
hi all
i know that the old yardstick rating was only a number be at 83 the same as a nacra 5.0 does not seem to correct
last week i was sailing aganist my mate in a nacra 5.0 and it did seem that the nacra 5.0 was faster and easyer and i had to sail quite hard to stay in touch
but having said that i an going to sail my mosquito two up with a kite because i thing it is about having as much fun as posible while showing my son how to sail
so when i go sailing out of southport , gold coast on yardstick 76 ? we will only be there to beat any one in front and than let the yardstick caluclations run ther course
but can not wait for the racing to start
and way get the chance to sail aganist drew and than learn something to inprove my boat and sailing abillity
thanks for your time


Brett Kelly
Fast Energy
Gold Coast
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Damo] #256473
01/22/13 09:43 PM
01/22/13 09:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 50
Brisvegas | QLD
drew_mac Offline
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drew_mac  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 50
Brisvegas | QLD
Hey Damo,

That is great.
We will have to make an effort to turn up to the same locations and sail together.
Will be quite a surprise to some places to have a few mossies in a race.
I will update website to have a calendar for sailing.

Will set up a new SEQ post on forum for us to discuss.


Drew....TOAST..1816....furr_ball..1635
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256475
01/22/13 10:42 PM
01/22/13 10:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 87
Gold Coast QLD
Damo Offline
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Damo  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 87
Gold Coast QLD
Sounds like a plan :-)


Damien 1820 Raw Prawn (under construction)!!!
QLD
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256501
01/24/13 04:51 AM
01/24/13 04:51 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
stillbitten Offline
Pooh-Bah
stillbitten  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...


[/quote]
As for the spinnaker stuff I leave that in your hands, obviously I know stuff all about that and if you say you have been robbed then I believe you.
cheers,
Darryn
[/quote]

I could spend hours coming up with arguments that condradict most of your statements and as for the one I have quoted above, no experienced spinnaker sailor has said anything of the kind.

I think you missed the point, I am not saying any Yardsticks are wrong or right, just questioning the methodology, which has brought about the changes.
That is they are based on 15 knot plus winds, so what do you do when winds are below?
That they are based on the best sailors from National Titles, so what does the rest of the sailors do?
What courses are they based on? It appears the spinnaker Cats are based on Windward and Return courses, so what do you do if spinnaker cats are sailing triangles against non spinnaker cats?
These and more are the questions that need to be answered. And are being asked by the Mosquito Assoc.

Don't forget YV states "With this update being in mid-season, clubs may wish to continue to use the previously published version, V2.0, for ongoing aggregate series, etc."


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
Re: New VYC Yardsticks-lots of changes [Re: Darryn] #256514
01/24/13 07:23 PM
01/24/13 07:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Rye, Victoria
air_apparent Offline
journeyman
air_apparent  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 80
Rye, Victoria
one thing thats a bit confusing.. the mosquito has had a reliable handicap for several years now, one of only a few yachts in the YA database. yet instead of moving other boats around this, we leave boats with marginal data and move mosquitos around.. when you read the reason for the move in handicap for mossie with kites the data used is based on the F16 rule (e.g. 17.5 Sqm kite) yet the mossie is only 14 Sqm and no where has the sloop(kite) version been consistently faster than the cat at any regatta, the sloops (without kite) have proven to be a little faster in the upper wind range due to the extra weight. but based off nationals and states data this could be also wrong as the two fleets do not start at the same time. so any data relating to time taken would be misleading, unless clubs split the fleet and run courses suitable for boats with kites and another for the ones that don't I think that this handicap will create a few inconsistencies


Gordon Hyde
Air Apparent
1520

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