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Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC #256878
02/02/13 10:55 AM
02/02/13 10:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 27
Louisiana
Robbie Offline OP
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Checking to see who is coming for the event from the F18 class? Also, I am understanding non-Hobie sails are not going to be allowed in the Wave class, and would like to know how many Waves WILL NOT attend b/c of this rule. The last time this event was held on the Gulf Coast, 2010, I had recently purchased my wave, (and did not have a Hobie sail at that time), I joined the class, and was given a one time exception from Hobie for the event. I understood this exception was given to all 1st time members. Does anyone else understand the rules this way? I would appreciate any help to clear this up for me. I will be one my F18 for this event, but as an OSYC member my interest is getting all the boats that we can for the regatta.
Thanks,


Robbo
Wave#1181
Capricorn#86
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256880
02/02/13 01:04 PM
02/02/13 01:04 PM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by Robbie
Also, I am understanding non-Hobie sails are not going to be allowed in the Wave class... The last time this event was held on the Gulf Coast, 2010, I had recently purchased my wave, (and did not have a Hobie sail at that time), I joined the class, and was given a one time exception from Hobie for the event. I understood this exception was given to all 1st time members...


Is there anything in writing to support this?

From the documents I see (NOR and HCA class rules), there is no mention of this; therefore, Hobie sails would be required. Am I missing something?

Mike

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256883
02/02/13 03:53 PM
02/02/13 03:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Louisiana
Robbie Offline OP
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Checking with others now, but am sure I was allowed to sail without a Hobie sail.


Robbo
Wave#1181
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Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256887
02/02/13 08:40 PM
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brucat Offline
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I don't doubt it happened for you before, just looking for an official (documented) policy, and not seeing it.

I know that HCA has struggled with this over the years, even allowing IWCA rules at Madcatter once. But, it's not obvious that it's allowed at all events.

Mike

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: brucat] #256910
02/03/13 01:07 PM
02/03/13 01:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
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Louisiana
Robbie Offline OP
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Mike,

I checked with Matt Bounds and he confirmed there is no one time exception. There was just probably a "gentleman's agreement" that allowed me to sail. I was incorrect on that point. Just to hate to lose some of this area's best wave sailor b/c they do not have any Hobie legal sails. Sure wish all sailors could be allowed as long as the sails measure into class rules.


Robbo
Wave#1181
Capricorn#86
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256913
02/03/13 03:25 PM
02/03/13 03:25 PM
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brucat Offline
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Right. Well the problem is that there are two classes, each with its own set of rules. Since the HCA rules don't give measurements, there's no way to "measure in."

The big joke is when someone shows up with a giant squaretop and claims he's racing one design. The Wave shouldn't be turned into a formula class.

Mike

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256914
02/03/13 06:01 PM
02/03/13 06:01 PM
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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"Turned into?" History - it's important. The IWCA was formed out of necessity when HCA had no interest in the Wave as a class, but there were a lot of people racing them anyway. Because it had not been a racing class in HCA or Hobie Cat's eyes, there were a great many different sails out there, all made by Hobie Cat - Dacron, Mylar, different cuts and sizes, Sunkist, Coca Cola, etc. The IWCA adopted a single sail size, based on Hobie Cat's recommended specs. After a few years of successful events, the HCA decided to write new rules, with a crew and boat weight specified, and Hobie-only parts, thus setting up the situation of two, competing classes for a single boat.

OSYC is a fantastic venue and a wonderful organization - I'm sure they will host a quality event.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256915
02/03/13 06:56 PM
02/03/13 06:56 PM
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brucat Offline
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Yes, history. Might as well be ancient history. Any sail made by HC would still be legal.

It has been pointed out several timed that the problems of the past have long been resolved by the factory. This is just an excuse to allow justification for weight ranging sails on this boat.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 02/03/13 06:58 PM.
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256918
02/04/13 01:16 AM
02/04/13 01:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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We see this differently - if you had gone to the class and been rebuffed (roundly), started your own thing and seen it take off, you might not feel the same way or chose the same words.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256925
02/04/13 07:47 AM
02/04/13 07:47 AM
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FWIW, I was in the room and was disappointed with the decision. I applaud the tenacity of the IWCA founders to see it through, but will never agree with the sail policy, as it creates an arms race that is divisive and distracting.

I think everyone's goal is to combine forces and have bigger events. Here's a compromise: If we all agree that HCC has addressed the sail quality and consistency (Rick has agreed to this point here); let's grandfather in all sails (from all makers) and require HCC sails going forward.

Mile

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256926
02/04/13 08:29 AM
02/04/13 08:29 AM
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Rock Hill,SC
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Mike,

I'm not understanding your position here. You were disappointed with the HCA decision? How so? You next sentence states that you will never agree with the sail policy. So what exactly was it that you were you disappointed in?

Divisive and distracting? HCA stepping in and claiming jurisdiction after IWCA had been established and proven successful is what has created divisiveness.

Kevin


Kevin Rejda
Rock Hill, SC

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: brucat] #256928
02/04/13 09:37 AM
02/04/13 09:37 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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The sail thing really hasn't been that big of a deal. They're not that expensive.


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256931
02/04/13 09:53 AM
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Disappointed that the HCA left a group of Hobie Cat sailors out. Plain and simple.

HCA isn't jumping in and claiming anything. They eventually came around and established class rules at the request of some members. They are hosting events using those rules, no one is forced to go.

This entire conversation is proof enough of the divisiveness of the issue. I've offered a potential solution; if all anyone wants is to prove their side is right, this will never move forward.

Mike

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: brucat] #256935
02/04/13 10:46 AM
02/04/13 10:46 AM
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srm Offline
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If the HCA is willing to invite the F18 class to one of their major events (something that, to me, seems to be in direct conflict with the HCA's "Hobie only" edict), then why the reluctance to invite the IWCA?

sm

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256937
02/04/13 12:04 PM
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brucat Offline
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F18s at an Area Championship is a huge change.

Mike

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: brucat] #256939
02/04/13 12:24 PM
02/04/13 12:24 PM
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srm Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
F18s at an Area Championship is a huge change.

Mike


I agree. It is a huge change that seems to fly in direct oppostion to the "Hobie Edict."

The IWCA is essentially the "Wave Formula Class" - one platform, open sail design with specific measurement requirements.

So if the HCA is willing to break their Hobie Only rule with regard to the F18 class, why wouldn't they do the same with the wave class? As I see it, the HCA likely realized that they're never going to get significant participation from their F18 classes unless they invite the entire F18 fleet to their regattas. It seems to me the same reasoning should apply the the Wave - very unlikely the HCA is ever going to get significant Wave attendance unless they break their own rules again and open up regattas to the IWCA.

If you're going to break your own rules, you might as well do it consistently.

sm

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256940
02/04/13 01:13 PM
02/04/13 01:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Clinton, Mississippi
rattlenhum Offline
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Originally Posted by Robbie
Checking to see who is coming for the event from the F18 class?


Wish you had ended your post right there, Robbie!


Originally Posted by Robbie
I will be one my F18 for this event, but as an OSYC member my interest is getting all the boats that we can for the regatta.
Thanks,


It's an HCA event. Read the HCA rules (e.g., for the Wave class) and policies (e.g., for the F-18s). You aren't going to get "all the boats you can" at this event.....only the ones that comply with HCA rules and policies. Otherwise, they are subject to being DSQed (as I expect you were with an "exception"/"gentleman's agreement" at NAs). I'm guessing they'd just rather attend some other event instead.

Rules are rules........why drag OSYC into this recurring **** storm? And over Waves, no less....Waves!


Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: rattlenhum] #256941
02/04/13 01:28 PM
02/04/13 01:28 PM
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srm Offline
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Originally Posted by rattlenhum

Rules are rules........


So how exactly does including the F18 class at an HCA area championship comply with the HCA's rules and strict one-design policy?

Does this regatta now set a prescedent for all future HCA events?

sm


Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: srm] #256942
02/04/13 02:19 PM
02/04/13 02:19 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Because we're all accustomed to pitching in and running regattas / being involved with the decisions in our small sport, it's pretty easy for us to forget that this is Hobie's event. They run it as they see fit and own that privilege. We don't have to like it.

I don't agree with several of the decisions/approaches, but in the end, it's their proverbial ball game and you can support/not support by controlling whether or not you attend. This is ultimately how restrictive/nonrestrictive decisions are made. They can clearly get the support for the direction they're heading - this is still a well attended event.


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: srm] #256945
02/04/13 03:01 PM
02/04/13 03:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 125
Clinton, Mississippi
rattlenhum Offline
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Originally Posted by srm
Originally Posted by rattlenhum

Rules are rules........


So how exactly does including the F18 class at an HCA area championship comply with the HCA's rules and strict one-design policy?

Does this regatta now set a prescedent for all future HCA events?

sm



The F-18 policy has been in affect for quite some time. I'm not sure how often it has been utilized, but it certainly is nothing specific to this event (no precedent):

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/sit...o/F18-RegattaInclusionPolicy01-06-10.pdf

I don't even have strong opinions either way about "The Edict," but I hate that the crap has to start flying (from both sides) anytime anything remotely related is posted here. My opinion is that, if one doesn't like the rules, policies, etc. of an organization, business, club, or regatta, one should work with/in the associated structure to change it. If that doesn't work, one should just avoid it. The endless ranting and misinformation (from both sides) here rarely does any good and often seems to (inappropriately) end up making things worse for the poor-bastard organization, business, club, or regatta that was just trying to do their thing! I don't want to see that happen to OSYC, where a lot of hard-working people (including Robbie) put on the best (mostly open/rarely Hobie) regattas in my area!


Jerome Vaughan
Hobie 16
Clinton, Mississippi
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