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Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Jake] #256946
02/04/13 03:03 PM
02/04/13 03:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 490
catandahalf Offline
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How about a parlay? The tiller extension may play a role in the final answer. The IWCA Class Rules have fit into the desires of the Wave owners along the Gulf Coast of the Florida panhandle and elswhere, especially in MS. Many of the Waves out of OSYC have sails made at local mom and pop sail lofts along the coast. The sails are being cut within the Rules for sail area.

Now, the tiller extension becomes debatable when trying to arrive at a fair means of allowing more sailors to attend the event.

In that the Formula 18 Class is 'open,' does a compromise regarding the Wave Class Rules and the IWCA Rules make sense? In order to have as many competitors on the starting line as possible, why not allow the mom and pop sails and hold the ground on the tiller extension? NO tillies!

OSYC has a long legacy of Hobie support, and the Wave Class could fill Biloxi Bay. Let's not be exclusive much longer. Ya never know who you might meet at the Hobie Midwinters East grin


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: rattlenhum] #256948
02/04/13 03:12 PM
02/04/13 03:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by rattlenhum
Originally Posted by srm
Originally Posted by rattlenhum

Rules are rules........


So how exactly does including the F18 class at an HCA area championship comply with the HCA's rules and strict one-design policy?

Does this regatta now set a prescedent for all future HCA events?

sm



The F-18 policy has been in affect for quite some time. I'm not sure how often it has been utilized, but it certainly is nothing specific to this event (no precedent):

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/sit...o/F18-RegattaInclusionPolicy01-06-10.pdf

I don't even have strong opinions either way about "The Edict," but I hate that the crap has to start flying (from both sides) anytime anything remotely related is posted here. My opinion is that, if one doesn't like the rules, policies, etc. of an organization, business, club, or regatta, one should work with/in the associated structure to change it. If that doesn't work, one should just avoid it. The endless ranting and misinformation (from both sides) here rarely does any good and often seems to (inappropriately) end up making things worse for the poor-bastard organization, business, club, or regatta that was just trying to do their thing! I don't want to see that happen to OSYC, where a lot of hard-working people (including Robbie) put on the best (mostly open/rarely Hobie) regattas in my area!


That's kinda what I was saying...Let it be...it is what it is. Hobie will run the regattas the way Hobie wants and it would be nice to see us have an environment where they can post a regatta announcement on here without getting shot at. Just don't expect to lob a mortar and not get return fire. grin


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: rattlenhum] #256949
02/04/13 03:37 PM
02/04/13 03:37 PM
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srm Offline
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Originally Posted by rattlenhum

The F-18 policy has been in affect for quite some time. I'm not sure how often it has been utilized, but it certainly is nothing specific to this event (no precedent):

http://www.hcana.hobieclass.com/sit...o/F18-RegattaInclusionPolicy01-06-10.pdf


Interesting. Thanks.

sm

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Jake] #256954
02/04/13 05:08 PM
02/04/13 05:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Jake, All

The problem is this
Quote
where a lot of hard-working people (including Robbie) put on the best (mostly open/rarely Hobie) regattas in my area!


When you view sailboat regattas as... "buying or selling a service"... you can let the consumer choose... just as you propose.

However,
When sailboat regattas are run by volunteers (like Robbie) as part of a small catsailing community...essentially a national club... they have a right to speak up about policies that divide and shrink their event.

Robbie just has it wrong... The Hobie edict is not the problem here... (the edict is a dead issue for the most part)

The real problem is that the Wave morass is really one of rules that give fair competition coupled with low maintenance... (and the lack of consensus there of)... This deal is not at all about the Hobie edict of kicking some fleets (eg Open class or any other OD cat fleet) out of the events they run or sanction for points.

Every season that ticks by without the sailors in the various WAVE camps reaching an agreement on fair competition means lower turnouts and more noise.

otherwise known as SNAFU!!

Robbie,
Nobody would bat an eye if an F18 faction wanted to race at Hobie midwinters but refused to follow the class measurement rules. No certificate... no entry, no one time exceptions.

Mike had a reasonable proposal... grandfather sails and then use factory sails (every new boat comes with one) .... (Note that you can't even drill a new hole in the new N17 Olympic boat.

other possibilities.... you could provide onsite measurement for free provided by the outside Wave class members.... The yacht club is not involved in your measurement issues, class membership enforcement, or even the crazy liablity insurance requirements that some classes dictate.


Go RAVENS!!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256955
02/04/13 05:12 PM
02/04/13 05:12 PM
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brucat Offline
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Bert, you do know that tiller extensions are legal, right?

IWCA rule 9.8

IHCA Wave rule 1.3

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 02/04/13 05:38 PM.
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Jake] #256956
02/04/13 05:37 PM
02/04/13 05:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 48
Ocean Springs, MS
Wing nut Offline
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Ocean Springs, MS
Originally Posted by Jake
The sail thing really hasn't been that big of a deal. They're not that expensive.


If someone is really passionate about racing Wave's this is the locgical solution, be HCA and IWCA compliant by owning 2 sails.

Last edited by Wing nut; 02/04/13 05:47 PM.

Andrew
"I'm a luffer not a footer"
NACRA F17 #136
HOBIE 18 MAGNUM #22
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256957
02/04/13 05:45 PM
02/04/13 05:45 PM
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brucat Offline
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I know people who do just that.

All the arguments about saving money and improving on inconsistencies go out the window when guys buy brand new boats (with factory sails) and brand new non-Hobie sails at the same time. When asked why, the answer is "Because it's faster." Arms race, defined.

Mike

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: srm] #256958
02/04/13 06:41 PM
02/04/13 06:41 PM
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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by srm
Originally Posted by rattlenhum

Rules are rules........


So how exactly does including the F18 class at an HCA area championship comply with the HCA's rules and strict one-design policy?

Does this regatta now set a prescedent for all future HCA events?

sm


Because the MWE at OSYC is not receiving an Area Championship grant, that's why. There is no precedent being set here. Do you see the words "Area Championships" anywhere on the NOR?

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256962
02/04/13 08:17 PM
02/04/13 08:17 PM

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xanderwess
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We did this to try and make some peace. The od rule came about and it took us a while to get used to it. We made a small kink in the armor with the F18 amendment and the very successful yacht club rule.
When I was chair of HCA- I included IWCA waves at our MWE events. I think it was 4 of them. Totally exercised executive power. Went right to my head. Nobody but me authorized it or condoned. This is where the confusion is coming from. I totally broke the rule repeatedly and feel I Owe the wave people an apology for making this worse rather than better. Current admin is playing by HCA rules as they should. I hope the F18 people come out in force to OSYC and can take advantage of the facility and enjoy the 3 day event.
Cw

Last edited by xanderwess; 02/05/13 11:43 AM.
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: mbounds] #256976
02/05/13 07:17 AM
02/05/13 07:17 AM
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brucat Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Do you see the words "Area Championships" anywhere on the NOR?


No, but the NOR is listed in the Area Champs section of the website.

I've always felt that the rules are really about maintaining the integrity of the class and its events. Making it all about the money reflects poorly on the class and the company.

Mike

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: brucat] #256979
02/05/13 07:54 AM
02/05/13 07:54 AM
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srm Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by mbounds
Do you see the words "Area Championships" anywhere on the NOR?


No, but the NOR is listed in the Area Champs section of the website.

I've always felt that the rules are really about maintaining the integrity of the class and its events. Making it all about the money reflects poorly on the class and the company.

Mike


I agree.

I'd like to understand how the HCA rationalizes conceding on the "Hobie Only" policy for one specific fleet (and not any others). The MWE may not state Area Championsip on the NOR, but its listed under the Area Championships section of the web site. However, regardless of whether this regatta is an area championship or not, my understanding was that all regattas run by the HCA were to be Hobie only.

sm

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: srm] #256982
02/05/13 09:18 AM
02/05/13 09:18 AM
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Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by srm
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by mbounds
Do you see the words "Area Championships" anywhere on the NOR?


No, but the NOR is listed in the Area Champs section of the website.

I've always felt that the rules are really about maintaining the integrity of the class and its events. Making it all about the money reflects poorly on the class and the company.

Mike


I agree.

I'd like to understand how the HCA rationalizes conceding on the "Hobie Only" policy for one specific fleet (and not any others). The MWE may not state Area Championsip on the NOR, but its listed under the Area Championships section of the web site. However, regardless of whether this regatta is an area championship or not, my understanding was that all regattas run by the HCA were to be Hobie only.

sm


wait...so now they're getting flack because the Tiger/Wildcat fleet is NOT Hobie exclusive? crazy


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: ] #256983
02/05/13 09:35 AM
02/05/13 09:35 AM
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Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
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Originally Posted by xanderwess

When I was chair of HCA- I included IWCA wave at our MWE events. I think it was 4 of them. Totally exercised executive power. Went right to my head. Nobody but me authorized it or condoned it but me. This is where the confusion is coming from. I totally broke the rule repeatedly and feel I Owe the wave people an apology for making this worse rather than better. Current admin is playing by HCA rules as they should.
Cw


Chris,

You did a splendid job when you had the chair and you don't need to apologize for anything. You had the balls to do what you thought was best for HCA and IWCA.

Having said that, I believe that HCA has every right to administer the Wave class using the save philosophy as the other one-design boats. The F18 really isn't part of this equation.

Almost every Wave sailor I know has a legal Hobie sail. There is no reason to allow anything else at HCA events. In fact, after the ruling came down for MWE last year, several of us used our Hobie sails at some tune-up regattas against top sailors with other sails and we did pretty well.

Having just raced at the Charlotte Harbor regattas this past weekend, I got an indication that a number of IWCA regulars will be at OS with Hobie sails.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]





Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #256993
02/05/13 11:53 AM
02/05/13 11:53 AM

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To clarify: The F18 policy we have is that for selected events, the F18 inclusion is possible if there is an seperate OA (other than HCA) for the F18, in this case OSYC. We would have a liability issue otherwise.
I would have thought this would be met with more open arms/minds than it is......its the best we can do given our rules/limitations/liabilty. The Wave thing is the Wave thing. I gave it the ol college try, its all you can really do.

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: ] #257000
02/05/13 12:23 PM
02/05/13 12:23 PM
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srm Offline
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Originally Posted by xanderwess
To clarify: The F18 policy we have is that for selected events, the F18 inclusion is possible if there is an seperate OA (other than HCA) for the F18, in this case OSYC. We would have a liability issue otherwise.
I would have thought this would be met with more open arms/minds than it is......


Thank you for the clarification. I was not trying to be closed minded. Just trying to understand how it was that a non-Hobie class could be included in a Hobie regatta. If I understand correctly, the answer is that the F18 fleet is essentially a separate entity with their regatta coinciding with the Hobie regatta.

sm

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #257012
02/05/13 01:16 PM
02/05/13 01:16 PM

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xanderwess
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xanderwess
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Bingo. It got passed with the Hobie people because we have essentially 2 F18 boats in our group that will benefit from an event like this. The fact that a bunch of non-HCA members would be at our event would pose an insurance issue without the outside OA. It'll be fun. This is the second event we've done in recent history with OSYC and they are first class and it'll be a good deal for everyone. We have our Race Director running races (Mark Santorelli) and he is good. Its my understanding the Kevin Rjada will be helping him so that is good too.

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #257031
02/05/13 04:47 PM
02/05/13 04:47 PM
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Brandon, MS
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So are any non-Hobie F-18's going to this event besides Robbie on his Cap?


_________
Ron
Nacra F-18
Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: Robbie] #257038
02/05/13 06:30 PM
02/05/13 06:30 PM

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xanderwess
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I hope so

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: RonB] #257040
02/05/13 07:03 PM
02/05/13 07:03 PM
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Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Originally Posted by RonB
So are any non-Hobie F-18's going to this event besides Robbie on his Cap?

John Bauldry's bringing his Wild Cat.

I should know - I'm hauling it down for him. crazy

Bunch of Hobie 17s going, too.

Re: Hobie MidWinters East @ OSYC [Re: RonB] #257056
02/06/13 08:58 AM
02/06/13 08:58 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by RonB
So are any non-Hobie F-18's going to this event besides Robbie on his Cap?



When a super freak that never gets tired, never complains and is always at the ready to talk me off the ledge asks you go sailing there is only one right answer. So unless my employeer bones me I'll be there!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
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"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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