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by Kc2canada. 04/07/21 11:08 PM
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Blade F16 #256116
01/09/13 03:49 PM
01/09/13 03:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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Is there any sort of cassette or shim you could put in the daggarboard trunk to allow the use of high aspect daggarboards?

Or would you have to rip out the trunk and install a new one for the new HA board?

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 01/09/13 03:50 PM.

Jay

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Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256119
01/09/13 04:38 PM
01/09/13 04:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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You could probably just make a filler out of wood. I think somebody told me the Glaser's did that with their Infusion to run the wildcat boards.


I'm boatless.
Re: Blade F16 [Re: Karl_Brogger] #256142
01/10/13 02:23 PM
01/10/13 02:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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That's kind of what I was thinking. Might make the older Blade design a little closer to the newer designs in terms of upwind performance/angles?


Jay

Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256147
01/10/13 03:47 PM
01/10/13 03:47 PM
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I don't think its that far off the pace as is. The achilles heal of the Blade is more its capacity to take a heavy team. The volume just isn't there like it is on the Falcon.

Talk to Matt, see what his thoughts are.


I'm boatless.
Re: Blade F16 [Re: Karl_Brogger] #256149
01/10/13 03:56 PM
01/10/13 03:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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I didn't find the Blade to suffer from heavier crew weight (range seemed pretty wide) ... big difference is that you can push the Falcon alot harder than the Blade without fear of pushing the leeward bow in.


USA 777
Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256163
01/11/13 08:56 AM
01/11/13 08:56 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Semantics?


If you go with a thinner board, might be able to build some cant into your shims. Random thought.


I'm boatless.
Re: Blade F16 [Re: tback] #256172
01/11/13 11:57 AM
01/11/13 11:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline OP
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Originally Posted by tback
I didn't find the Blade to suffer from heavier crew weight (range seemed pretty wide) ... big difference is that you can push the Falcon alot harder than the Blade without fear of pushing the leeward bow in.


I got on Seth's Blade(may have been a Falcon) at that Windy T-winds a while back and we didn't do too badly (other than I kept knocking him off the back) up or down, but I think there was only one or two Falcons there to compare to, and they were driven by rock-stars so I didn't even think to analyze the performance minutia. We were probably #370-#380 combined

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 01/11/13 03:37 PM.

Jay

Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256174
01/11/13 01:15 PM
01/11/13 01:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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I've raced the Blade 2-up at over 350lbs and it wasn't very competitive in <12kts against the uni teams and 290-300lb 2-up teams. I think in big breeze it'd be fine upwind but downwind lack the buoyancy. Sailing the Viper 1-up in breeze is a handful, I was near the ragged edge a few times but managed to keep it upright. I think she'd handle weight better than the Blade but a solid team on either will do well. The 2-up Blade at our club does well when the breeze is up, they were first to finish a 30 mile distance race in big breeze against some decently sailed N20's (we didn't put the pro team on the water, may have been a different story).


Scorpion F18
Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256924
02/04/13 08:16 AM
02/04/13 08:16 AM
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pgp Offline
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I got a reading on the class rules and there is no limit on length (or area that I could find). Rules permit up to 6 degrees of cant.

So, I was thinking about building a set or modifying a set from an F18.

Comments?



Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256943
02/04/13 03:42 PM
02/04/13 03:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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A set of wildcat boards would be perfect on the F16, high aspect and less area than the other F18 foils, would work really well on the smaller boat.


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Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256944
02/04/13 03:54 PM
02/04/13 03:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I've had that exact thought.


I'm boatless.
Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256947
02/04/13 04:07 PM
02/04/13 04:07 PM
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pgp Offline
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Thanks Macca.




Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256977
02/05/13 08:18 AM
02/05/13 08:18 AM
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pgp Offline
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A set of Wildcat boards is over $1,600 for the pair new. That's out of the question for a 6 y.o. boat.

What would it take to build a set at home? Anyone done it?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256978
02/05/13 08:47 AM
02/05/13 08:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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$1600 for the pair seems cheap to me. Source? I say this because the Infusion Mk. 2 long boards are $1200 EACH. I think there may have been a first generation Wildcat board that was shorter? Those I can believe would be $800 a piece?

As to building your own, I've considered it but decided against it. I currently have $2K in tooling and easily another $3K in carbon lying in my shop to build 60" molded model airplane wings, so I have a pretty good handle on what manufacturing carbon things costs. There are several techniques to build good foils but the issue is we are now in a super high load case with a relatively thin foil. To build these strong enough, high modulus pre-preg carbons are likely in use, along with compression molding techniques. Even if wet layups are being done, through resin infusion or simple hand layup, and they are building a somewhat hollow structure, you still need molds capable of post-cures in excess of 175 degrees; i.e, you need aluminum molds. Lets add up the costs:

1) Set of aluminum daggerboard molds: $2K for the aluminum, plus machining time, so ~$7-10K by the time you are done.
2) Machined end-grain balsa or high compression strength foam: Since you're doing it twice, maybe $500 including machine time.
3) High Modulus uni-carbon: $200 worth might cover you
4) Regular carbon for rest of board: $150
5) Gallon of MGS epoxy: $250
6) Pint of gelcoat: $40

Still think its cheaper to build a set at home? Hotwire foam core won't work, melts in the oven. Maybe you can bag a set over a machined core but you still need several hundred dollars worth of materials, and several hundred more dollars worth of vacuum equipment.

Last edited by samc99us; 02/05/13 08:51 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256981
02/05/13 09:12 AM
02/05/13 09:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Thanks for the input.

Source was a local Hobie dealer who prefaced the conversation with the statement that the Wildcat is a "rare" boat so he may not have the latest price. The price you quoted doesn't surprise me.

I'd be more inclined to look at plywood first. Two layers of veneer, laminated at 90 degrees would be stiff but I've no idea if it would be stiff enough or hold up for any appreciable time.

Last edited by pgp; 02/05/13 09:12 AM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256984
02/05/13 10:41 AM
02/05/13 10:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I've kicked around building a laminated daggerboard and rudders out of wood just for fun. I could make em' purdy....

I do not think I could make them nearly as stiff though, at least not with straight wood. Now If I could bury an aluminum I beam or something.


I'm boatless.
Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256986
02/05/13 10:44 AM
02/05/13 10:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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and, wood is stiffest with the grain. You might want the layers offset a bit, but not much. Just a gut feeling, but I'd say 45*; would be too much even. You'd want the grain to be pretty much vertical.

Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 02/05/13 10:46 AM.

I'm boatless.
Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256989
02/05/13 12:01 PM
02/05/13 12:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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I think it would be do-able, aircraft props have been made from laminating wood for over 100 years. IIRC they were all pretty much parallel.

Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256990
02/05/13 12:05 PM
02/05/13 12:05 PM
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Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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If the boards were short enough then for sure you can do it in wood, but with the aspect ratio and foil section shape of current F18 foils..... no way is it possible to do in wood.

Most builders are struggling to build unbreakable foils even in carbon.. If you want them to be perfect then you need to spend big bucks to build them right.

I reckon 1600 USD is pretty ok for a pair of wildcat boards, they will be really good in an F16


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Re: Blade F16 [Re: waterbug_wpb] #256996
02/05/13 01:07 PM
02/05/13 01:07 PM
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pgp Offline
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Well, again, I have some things keeping me off the water. So while I'm on hold I may just cobble up 1 board 50% longer, drop it in the trunk and see if it does any better than the stock board. If there is any appreciable difference I would be satisfied with that. I won't be collecting any pickle dishes so there isn't much point in throwing a lot of money at it.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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