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Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Jake] #257182
02/07/13 05:22 PM
02/07/13 05:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Jake
I'm not sure why that's a situation that a jumper is needed (unless there is someone trapped under the trampoline...which doesn't appear to be the case here).

That Hobie 20 had been over for about an hour. The mast was full of water and they couldn't right it. The wind was peaking at 35 kts, the water temp was 52°. There was also a 3 to 5 kt flood current trying to take them up on the rocks on the south side of Angel Island. The rescue boats alternated between towing him away from the rocks and trying to right the boat with the motorboat, without success. Brett went in the water to help them, and I transferred from the signal boat to the rescue boat to assist with the righting process.(We had called racing for the day, the photo was taken from the signal boat. We were about a mile and a half from where they originally capsized.)

Despite our best efforts, we still couldn't right the boat.We eventually towed it (still inverted) upwind/upcurrent of a very small beach on the southwest side of Angel Island and let them drift into shore - they missed hitting rocks by about a foot on the way in. They managed to right the boat on shore, dropped the sails and we threw them a spare radio attached to a Type IV PDF (cushion) so we could talk to them to coordinate getting them off the beach. They walked the boat up the beach to get away from the rocks, and we got as close as we dared to the surfline while Brett swam out to connect towlines. It took us the better part of an hour to tow them back to the launching area.
[Linked Image]
The worst part of this was they tied up a significant portion of our rescue resources (two of six boats) when we had 50 other boats racing. A similar thing had happened to them two days prior (wasn't as windy) and they hadn't fixed it. (It was a charter boat and they had limited experience with a Hobie 20.) I wasn't going to let them sail the next day after this unless they fixed that mast. Fortunately, I didn't have to - they withdrew from the event after this incident - he knew he was over his head.

The best part? The guy's name was . . . John Williams.

And there was no damage to the boat, to people, we didn't get in the way of shipping or ferry traffic, and we didn't have to call the Coast Guard.

The two rescue boat drivers were ex-Vietnam war helicopter pilots. You never heard such professional radio comms in your life. Great guys to work with.

Attached Files
SFB Rescue.jpg (278 downloads)
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: mbounds] #257183
02/07/13 05:37 PM
02/07/13 05:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
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Now THAT is a great story...

It also points to the responsiblities involved in running a great regatta...

Nice job!!!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Mark Schneider] #257187
02/07/13 08:46 PM
02/07/13 08:46 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 20
S
slackwater_sf Offline
stranger
slackwater_sf  Offline
stranger
S

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 20
Yes, agree, running the races. MBounds wrote it well. Angel Island is low on my list of places to beach a multihull, however given the alternative, looks delightful.

My first Hobie (multihull) sail was rescuing a capsized boat in Richardson Bay off a lee shore, just North of the picture.

S-->

Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Mark Schneider] #257188
02/07/13 08:48 PM
02/07/13 08:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
How's that job search going Matt? Got some time on yer hands do ya?


I'm boatless.
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Karl_Brogger] #257189
02/07/13 10:17 PM
02/07/13 10:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
How's that job search going Matt? Got some time on yer hands do ya?

Not really - that took all of 5 minutes to write and less than 2 minutes in Google Earth / Photoshop.

Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: mbounds] #257227
02/09/13 09:55 AM
02/09/13 09:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I would have considered popping off a shroud pin if I couldn't get it righted and there was no place to land. Good to have pliers/multi-tool within reach. At least that way you could get the hulls righted and perhaps the sails and rig back on board?

Obviously only if the situation were pre-emergent (like the poop would hit the fan in ten minutes)... like drifting in to rocks, shipping traffic, etc

If that was Dub, how long ago was the incident?


Jay

Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Mark Schneider] #257228
02/09/13 11:31 AM
02/09/13 11:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Jay, it was one of the other sailing John Williamses. I was watching that event from afar, and thankfully not swimming in it.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257231
02/09/13 03:21 PM
02/09/13 03:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
I would have considered popping off a shroud pin if I couldn't get it righted and there was no place to land. Good to have pliers/multi-tool within reach. At least that way you could get the hulls righted and perhaps the sails and rig back on board?

It is almost impossible to right a catamaran without the rig on it. The only one I've ever seen done is a Hobie 14, and it took two guys to do that.

Also, you can't just "pull a pin" on a rig that's got significant tension in it - like a Hobie 20 or an F18.

The only other alternative we had was to tow the boat - slowly - out of the wind, waves and current to where we could right it with the rescue boat. We came very close to doing it in the open water, but the boat would take off on us as soon as it came up and would go right over again.
[Linked Image]
Would have worked better if they had made sure the traveler was all the way out, but remember, the boat was completely upside down most of the time.

Attached Files
IMG_1723sized.jpg (159 downloads)
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: mbounds] #257283
02/11/13 10:43 AM
02/11/13 10:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
All good points from those who were on-site...


Jay

Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Mark Schneider] #257327
02/11/13 06:03 PM
02/11/13 06:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
What about cutting a shroud?

It's hard to imagine that a mast full of water makes it easier to right than being dismasted.

I think that either way, you're going to need a power boat, or at least some extra guys.

Mike

Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: brucat] #257411
02/13/13 11:42 AM
02/13/13 11:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
It is almost impossible to right a catamaran without the rig on it. The only one I've ever seen done is a Hobie 14, and it took two guys to do that.


I can testify to that one. De-masted a Hobie 14 in Hurricane Gultch (Long Beach Harbor) on my third attempt at rounding the weather mark. Lost the rig. Even with a power boat, it was nearly impossible to flip the hulls and tramp back over. Try it on dry land sometime. In water you sink and the boat slips away from you. A mast (and raised sail) is a giant lever arm and or kick stand.

At least on a 14 you can sink a corner and start the rotation. A Hobie 20 has too much volume far aft and far forward. As does the Hobie Wave. Back when we introduced the Wave, we took it to Club Med in Hualtuco Mexico (at the H16 Worlds). The club staff quickly tested something we had not... righting from Turtle. With both Doug and Myself standing on the transom... we could barely get it back over and righted. That is the day of conception for Baby Bob.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: mmiller] #257413
02/13/13 11:49 AM
02/13/13 11:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
That is the day of conception for Baby Bob.


AND THAT IS THE REST OF THE STORY....

Wow... I always hated that thing on the Wave and thought you put it on there for the WAF marketing factor...

Thanks Matt



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Mark Schneider] #257415
02/13/13 11:55 AM
02/13/13 11:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
This thread and some brain storming sessions of the MHC convince me that our sport really could use a Safety manual of best practices and recommendations.

We have some things... PU's terrific Hobie Race manual.

But... were I to be on a mark boat for a Wave regatta and gone to help a turtled Wave... (bob fills with water or some such) I would have never known this fact.

A tip sheet for a non cat sailing volunteer on Mark Boat that matches up to the boats on the course could really help matters.

I really think the Area Reps could get their regions members to pitch in and get this collective wisdom together in a usable fashion.


Last edited by Mark Schneider; 02/13/13 11:56 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Mark Schneider] #257438
02/13/13 05:21 PM
02/13/13 05:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
You just can't know-it-all not having experienced it, so reading tips from others would be the next best for sure. That is for safety of the driver, jumper as well as sailors being assisted.

I totally forgot the time in San Felipe when I pulled the rig off my 16 when upside down. The mast was bouncing on the bottom (50 knots off-shore storm / Chubasco hit Midwinters West one year). We couldn't right due to water in the mast. Taking the sail down and pulling the rig off was the last straw. Even a passing Panga couldn't help us. They could have if the rig was still on. After about 6 hours, we were hoisted onto a shrimp trawler by a crane.



Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: mmiller] #257439
02/13/13 05:31 PM
02/13/13 05:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
hmmm..
Quote
After about 6 hours, we were hoisted onto a shrimp trawler by a crane.


There has simply GOT to be a better way to deal with XXx hitting the fan.. ... I don't need personal stories like this if I can avoid by learning from others ....

getting some wisdom with a quick read.... priceless!

We should get something done!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: Mark Schneider] #257504
02/14/13 11:43 AM
02/14/13 11:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
that being said (you can't right a cat with no rig), is it better to just stay turtle with the rig intact (and possibly bouncing on the bottom), or just cut it loose and (if possible) retrieve/pack the stuff on the overturned trampoline for a tow back to land?


Jay

Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257515
02/14/13 02:19 PM
02/14/13 02:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
That was the decision I had made... Bad one (I think) now I think back. The rig hitting the bottom was damaging my boat, but losing the rig prevented me from righting... and acting as a sea anchor which increased my drift. That further endangered my life, so....

Further... I had to go to the mast head (on our side) to release the halyard. I almost lost hold of the boat and only had a 3/16" line to hang onto as the boat surged in the swells. Scary s---.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: 2013 USSA Alter Cup Announced [Re: mmiller] #257522
02/14/13 08:04 PM
02/14/13 08:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
old hand
H17cat  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
Safety issue, All sailors that check out a Wave or Hobie 16 at Sail Sand Point in Seattle must first demonstrate their ability to capsize and right the boat prior to going sailing. No exceptions. Once on the list, they can then check out the boats in the future. This is also the thing that students in our classes do the first day.

Back on subject, the plans for the Alter Cup are going well. Several of us local sailors will be there to help you out on the water as needed.

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