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Mast Rotation #257585
02/18/13 05:42 PM
02/18/13 05:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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In doing some research on a new boat I have seen a couple boats that the quick setting for downwind has been removed. When I asked about it I was told it isn't needed. That the rig can function better as is and not be over rotated for down wind.

This is a new one on me and I wanted to know had anyone else here heard of this?


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257587
02/18/13 07:01 PM
02/18/13 07:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
that doesn't sound right.


Jake Kohl
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257588
02/18/13 07:28 PM
02/18/13 07:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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california
This is a quote from a someone who will not be named here for reasons I can't explain right now.

"Quick release , note the top Phantom and Nacra guys don't let there rigs out anymore, C2 has too as the rig will not handle it, our rig handles not doing it, the right angle is to keep it in, so we are just fine tuning on side of boat if need to. There is room for one if u want."


Last edited by F-18 5150; 02/19/13 12:01 AM.

Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257589
02/18/13 07:44 PM
02/18/13 07:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 554
Boston, Ma
J
Jeff.Dusek Offline
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Boston, Ma
I know in the clinic that Macca gave at the Racine F18 NAs, and which is on the CRAW Youtube channel, he mentions he doesn't release the rotator. If the mast can handle it, it makes sense from a flow standpoint, completely releasing the rotator creates a really sharp transition from mast to sail which can't be good for separation.

We don't have a quick release on our boat, and I have definitely had roundings where I didn't release the rotator. Might play around with this during training this spring, would love to have one less thing to worry about during a rounding.

Last edited by Jeff.Dusek; 02/18/13 07:44 PM.

USF18 Eastern Area Rep
Nacra Infusion USA 753
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257590
02/18/13 07:50 PM
02/18/13 07:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
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I have been looking at some photos and found a few Phantom and Flying Phantom shots with the rotation at the shrouds. I just didn't want to buy a new boat and then have to buy a new mast because I followed someones advice.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257593
02/18/13 10:42 PM
02/18/13 10:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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wildtsail7  Offline
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Rich, your comment about the C2 mast doesn't make any sense. Yes they've broke some but so have all the manufacturers.
I've sailed my infusion, wildcat, and c2 downwind without it all the way off. Sometimes it absolutely makes sense not to rotate it to 90 or past. I've found there are certain conditions where I've felt it's faster to leave it pointed around the shrouds. I would not to that in heavy air though, not worth the risk over whatever slight reward there may be.

Re: Mast Rotation [Re: wildtsail7] #257594
02/19/13 12:06 AM
02/19/13 12:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by wildtsail7
Rich, your comment about the C2 mast doesn't make any sense. Yes they've broke some but so have all the manufacturers.
I've sailed my infusion, wildcat, and c2 downwind without it all the way off. Sometimes it absolutely makes sense not to rotate it to 90 or past. I've found there are certain conditions where I've felt it's faster to leave it pointed around the shrouds. I would not to that in heavy air though, not worth the risk over whatever slight reward there may be.

That was a quote from someone else. I am not trying to put any boat down I am just looking for some more input on this idea.I am shopping several different boats and trying to make an informed decision on what to buy.

I saw one boat that didn't have the quick release and asked about it and got that response.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257601
02/19/13 04:49 AM
02/19/13 04:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 54
D
dr5e14w Offline
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I'm with Todd on this one. There are conditions where it's beneficial but not worth the risk in others. If the mast is built so strong that you don't need to let the rotator out in certain conditions then my uneducated opinion is that the mast is probably overly stiff creating fewer options for either depowering or increasing power to the sail/rig/platform.

I could be wrong but I'd rather have a mast that I can more easily tune using down haul, rotator, etc than a stiff mast that does not have to be rotated as far out.

Not if someone has a mast that allows both of these then they have hit home run and good for them.

Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257606
02/19/13 07:27 AM
02/19/13 07:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
There are times you are wailing on the cunningham down wind too, but doing so in heavy air is asking for trouble.

I've got a release for the gross adjustment on the end of the starboard beam cap. I rigged it up for single handing, and it has worked pretty well. I don't have any pictures unfortunately, and my boat is tucked away.


I'm boatless.
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: Karl_Brogger] #257608
02/19/13 08:58 AM
02/19/13 08:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
so letting the rotation out is more for mast integrity now than aerodynamics on the mainsail?

I suspect as much since today's beachcats scream downwind and move the apparent wind angle so far forward it would seem a fully rotated mast would put a lot of drag up in the rig...


Jay

Re: Mast Rotation [Re: waterbug_wpb] #257819
02/25/13 10:30 PM
02/25/13 10:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 732
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
so letting the rotation out is more for mast integrity now than aerodynamics on the mainsail?


Yes, no, sometimes, always, never, maybe.... Platform and condition specific. F18's are generally pretty durable and forgiving to rotation while some boats have to think "protect the mast" all the time (i.e. On F18's in light and middle conditions, you can adjust for flow). I'd argue that for most people if letting the rotation out is going to damage transitions, the speed lost to not working it is less than what would be lost in poor boat handling (pound wise, penny foolish).

Re: Mast Rotation [Re: Will_R] #257842
02/26/13 08:01 PM
02/26/13 08:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
I still think that is some misguided information. With the mast rotated fully, it's putting the major axis of the mast closer to in-line with the spinnaker loads. We always get nervous if it under-rotates. Distance racing on the I20, we used to sometimes run a positive mast rotator to make sure the mast didn't under-rotate.

Is it that they are saying that the boat is faster by not rotating the mast to 90 degrees with the spinnaker up?


Jake Kohl
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: Jake] #257868
02/27/13 11:34 AM
02/27/13 11:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Jake


Is it that they are saying that the boat is faster by not rotating the mast to 90 degrees with the spinnaker up?


which was my question: is there higher drag with that mast rotated? Do you need that much AOA on the mast with the apparent wind so far forward?


Jay

Re: Mast Rotation [Re: Jake] #257878
02/27/13 02:50 PM
02/27/13 02:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Jake


Is it that they are saying that the boat is faster by not rotating the mast to 90 degrees with the spinnaker up?


They are and it is. It's also true your mast is more stout than the AHPC mast so you have more wiggle room. The AHPC mast has only made me nervous during a double trapped spin reach while playing the traveler, thank goodness the water was flat.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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Re: Mast Rotation [Re: David Ingram] #257883
02/27/13 04:40 PM
02/27/13 04:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake


Is it that they are saying that the boat is faster by not rotating the mast to 90 degrees with the spinnaker up?


They are and it is. It's also true your mast is more stout than the AHPC mast so you have more wiggle room. The AHPC mast has only made me nervous during a double trapped spin reach while playing the traveler, thank goodness the water was flat.


Oooooohhhhh....you need to teach me some things at spring fever and I need to pour you rum drinks in return.


Jake Kohl
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: David Ingram] #257885
02/27/13 05:43 PM
02/27/13 05:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Jake


Is it that they are saying that the boat is faster by not rotating the mast to 90 degrees with the spinnaker up?


They are and it is. It's also true your mast is more stout than the AHPC mast so you have more wiggle room. The AHPC mast has only made me nervous during a double trapped spin reach while playing the traveler, thank goodness the water was flat.



The AHPC mast is soft, but I wouldn't call it weak. I don't think there is any more or less breakages than any of the others, (except the Tiger mast, that thing is indestructible)

The best mast I've had for a Viper was the softest. Could be just the way my sails worked/were cut too, but they were extremely responsive with that mast.



Mast's can do a lot more bending than you'd think before they pop. I've seen a F16 mast do some really scary things, on my own boat, and on others. Karl's Beth's mast was getting pretty ugly on our last gybe to the finish line at Steeplechase, but there wasn't a time when I was in a panic about grenading it.


I'm boatless.
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257886
02/27/13 05:43 PM
02/27/13 05:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline OP
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california
Jake

I brought it up do I get Rum drinks too?


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257887
02/27/13 05:53 PM
02/27/13 05:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Jake

I brought it up do I get Rum drinks too?


I'm pretty liberal with rummies...so sure! But, you should note that you earned yours through good nature. grin


Jake Kohl
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257890
02/27/13 06:02 PM
02/27/13 06:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
Cool but I won't be at spring fever i think I just sold my boat so I don't have one right now. Never advertise your boat for sale before you are sure about the next one.

I am trying to make the GT300 and the Americas in Florida. Guess I'll be on a new boat.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Mast Rotation [Re: F-18 5150] #257892
02/27/13 08:39 PM
02/27/13 08:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by F-18 5150
Cool but I won't be at spring fever i think I just sold my boat so I don't have one right now. Never advertise your boat for sale before you are sure about the next one.

I am trying to make the GT300 and the Americas in Florida. Guess I'll be on a new boat.


I'm watching and rooting for you!


Jake Kohl
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