Do what!? It's perfectly legal if they made it clean and nothing said there indicates otherwise.

So, are you now judging by perceived level or "confidence" of making it clean and NOT by the actual situation regarding whether they caused starboard to deviate course? Good luck with that! I don't want to be on your race course.

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone over here.

5 words or less Jake.

Twilight Zone happens here first (5)

Jake... the AC45s are USING ON THE WATER JUDGES and a modified rule set....very different game.

The sport we play under the RRS is very clear... Each Sailor calls the fouls on themselves.

It's perfectly legal makes no sense in the RRS game.

the rule is... HONOR the right of way of starboard... this leaves the judgement up to PORT..... did the reality of the cross meet his standard of HONOR the rights of starbord.

YOU can't escape your responsibility to make the call on your self and apply your understanding of the word HONOR.

As Starbord... I am not JUDGING anything.... All I get to do is PROTEST... So.. Yes...Sailors call protest when their "percieved level of confidence" drops.... But in the RRS game... it is still your call... you judge your own actions.

I started this, so I'm going to try and figure out why you think I'm doing something illegal. Whether there are on the water judges or not has no bearing on the rules in this case - I don't know why you would imply this. The rules are the rules. They still have the same port/starboard right of way rules. And, Ding, apparently I don't regard any rules, including my own.

I'm preparing to cross a starboard boat while I am on port, as I approach it, I determine that I have a 70% chance of making it - which means that I believe I can make the crossing clean. To provide reference for my 70% determination, had I determined I had a 50% chance, otherwise referred to as "50/50 chance", I consider that I have an equal chance of not making and an equal chance of making it - it could go either way...I probably wouldn't cross in this situation...but that's not what we're talking about. To reiterate, here I am, having determined that I have a 70% chance, better than average, likely to get through, chance of crossing clean... Two things happen:

Scenario 1) I make it clear and the starboard boat does not have to make any effort to avoid me. I don't do any penalty turns and I continue racing normally.

scenario 2) for some reason, I don't make it clear, starboard has to make a slight course change to avoid me, I do penalty turns as soon as I can get clear of other boats, and I resume racing.

Remind me what I did wrong other than poorly butts my chance to cross if scenario 2 takes place?

I guess I understood Bundy's quote to mean that the port boat fouled them. Why else would he comment on it?

Scenario 2 is only OK if you didn't knowingly try the cross with no hope (RRS 2), and don't come out with a significant advantage (RRS 44).

Mike

Take the possibility of a collision off the table. NO CHANCE, got it?

At what point is it OK for Port to cross Starboard's bow? How about if he's 1000 yards ahead? That ought to be OK. How about 120 yards (20 boat lengths)? Is that too close? What's your comfort zone?

My rule of thumb is using 12 mph as a good sailing speed, you travel 1 boat length every second. If you cross his path a full 10 seconds before he crosses your wake, is that enough clearance? Ten seconds, 10 boat lengths, is 60 yards, pretty close (maybe), but is that enough for him to say you bothered him and warrant a protest? My rule when walking in a crowd, riding my bike in traffic, or sailing a boat is that I am OK if the other guy does not have to "break stride" when I cross in front of him. So it's HIS perception that matters!

A some magic separation distance you have to make a judgement call and when racing, "clean" gets into the eye of the beholder. In American football you can't run into a punter but he'll make a HUGE show of getting fouled if someone even comes near. A Starboard boat might turn up, down, or slow up, whether out of fear or just to establish interference. It's within their power to present the aura of a foul. Without a collision, a "legal" cross is in the fear, confidence, and "gamesmanship" of both players. Winning racers will vote on their prowess and boat speed to go for it while others, like Pete, would back down at the 1000 yard mark and tack away or duck.

A "clean cross" is a decision you have all made (except Pete). My question is, if you are close enough to have to think about it and you decide that absolutely you can make it cleanly, do you still analysis your future responsibility and race position if the other guy calls a protest?

I love it when someone has so little faith in their arguments they resort to ad hominems. It generally indicates stupidity.

"do you still analysis your future responsibility and race position if the other guy calls a protest?"

Move to an unambiguous rule and you won't have the problem.

Scenario 1) I make it clear and the starboard boat does not have to make any effort to avoid me. I don't do any penalty turns and I continue racing normally.

So.... Starboards call by Bundy is... He fouled me...
That is Bundy's perception... and for this case... does not say a word.
Now what should happen...

Under the RRS that we sail under.
Jake has to make the judgement ON HIMSELF... did I HONOR... not... did I clear by 6 inches... 6 feet, 6 yards, etc.
the standard is HONOR>.. If your understanding of honoring Starboards right of way is that I made it.. so I honored starboards right of way... You would sail on.... and vice versa.

Obviously, if Port SEE's Starbord change course then he KNOWS he violated the rule and does his proper penalty turn (your number 2) ..or he chooses to cheat in addition to breaking the rule. (Starbord has not said a word)

So, What does HONOR mean.
Dave Parker uses this interpretation of HONOR
My rule when walking in a crowd, riding my bike in traffic, or sailing a boat is that I am OK if the other guy does not have to "break stride" when I cross in front of him. So it's HIS perception that matters!

I agree... Port has to Judge his actions taking into account starboards perception and the reality on the water.... (Jake cleared by 6 inches)

The standards we use are .. CALL YOUR OWN which means that Jake judges himself and does a turn (or not) based on his HONOR the right of way of starbord.

When your sole benchmark is... I, Port cleared by 6 inches... you are diminishing the standard of HONOR Starbords Right of Way.... so you are violating the rule.

In this case... we know that Starboard has a strong opinion... Bundy says it was a foul... He did not change course...
But he is not the judge.. All he gets to do is hail protest... Jake gets a second bite at the apple now and can reevaluate his understanding of the standard... HONOR Starbords right of way....
Step three of the game is that Bundy files the paperwork and goes to the room.

The evidence he presents is windspeed, wave action, conditions, time and distance.

The PC will judge the standard of Port HONORING Starbords right of way on these facts!

So... your 70/30 calculation MUST take into account the rule.. HONOR starbords right of way. I can make it... it will be close But Starbord perception will be that his right of way was honored is the standard of the RRS.

I will make it .... it will be close... and I don't give a fig about what Starbord percieves about the cross is NOT HONORing Starbords ROW.

Another way to describe this concept is to use the word impecable. EG... I Honor my word MEANS “impeccable “ ... NOT “just enough to count”

OK,you're getting long winded again and I'm going to resort to 5 words by contrast soon.

Bundy never said he was fouled - you guys are assuming that to be the case. Even if so, it did not result in a collision. My point was, even the pros have tight crossings...everyone does. It's a fact of racing and pushing things near the limit and it doesn't result in carnage.

You sort'a have to rely on Starboard to say whether or not you fouled them if it is really really close - there's no other way to know for sure. If I made it that close and I'm not certain whether or not a foul occured, I'm going to bow to starboard's feedback and assume that he is correct (unless, he's really really obviously not correct). So, unless they do some obvious bear away (to which I would do turns whether or not they indicated the foul), the only way for me to know if a foul was committed is for them to indicate that they had to deviate from their course (it's actually written in the rules that the offendee is required to notify the offender by hailing "protest"...i paraphrase).

Dave


I believe you answered this for your self... YES...you analyze the situation from HONOR starbord right of way.
You make the call on yourself.... the other guy can do what ever he wants... but all he gets to do is give you another bite at the apple... Protest... (not foul)and your third bite of course is the protest room.
I liked your analogy of HONOR ROW.


the football analogy fails because the ref calls the foul and the gamesmanship is to convince him of such. In Sailing you call your own.



This is catamaran sailors complete bastardization of the RRS and the sport of sailing.

There is no honor involved when port cuts starboard in half. That seems to be the direction we are headed.

This is Orphans point... YOU shifted responsibility to Starbord... Starbord does not want to accept the responsiblity... He has absolute ROW. it's your responsibiltiy to call your own foul.... don't shift it! His RECOURSE is to hail protest...

So.. You cross with 6 inches to spare... 10 knots standard conditions.... starbord does not change course in the cross. They hail protest.... (AND now they are pissed off that you pushed the ROW that close, put them in the dicey situation AND you forced them to take the responsiblity to call you on it with the hail protest.

Do you expect to win or lose the protest?

No, Pete, I was crystal clear, assume NO CHANCE of a collision. Now consider you are 5 miles ahead on port and look back and see the starboard boat. Do you park and let him cross in an hour or two? How about 500 yards ahead? When does he gain ROW? When he changes course due to his fear of collision or when perhaps when he's pissed you even got near him to be ahead.

So I agree, it gets down to honor, honesty, and sailing judgement. You can cross, foul your opponent, admit guilt, do your turns, and not be a poor sportsman. Jake's original story seemed to have two results, cross and be in first or tack, gybe, duck the fleet and be in last. His decision was a big one.

Harry Callahan summed it up: "You've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky?"

Callahan is a fictional character. The destroyed boat I've cited is not.

umm... pete... if port cuts starbord in half... he should be shot...for being the dangerous idiot that he proved to be.

I think you meant to say... if starbord cuts port in half...

I bolded a particular part above - if the crossing was that close (6") It's a safe bet that starboard doesn't consider that "clean". I wouldn't if it were me. Starboard is obligated to avoid collision and would be reasonably expected to start changing course to avoid that potential collision. There is judgement involved. As a starboard boat, I'm probably bearing away a little toward the end of cross that's only clear by 6" to make sure we don't hit if some other variable comes into play. At that point, I have been fouled and I will make a decision, as the starboard boat, whether or not to cry foul. I don't expect port to do turns unless I indicate foul. I don't expect port to really know if he fouled me unless I indicate foul. I would expect no different as the port boat. If they ended up in the room with a crossing that close, I would expect starboard to win the protest. Starboard has to react in a reasonable manner to avoid contact...so even if you could put a tape measure and video camera on it to demonstrate that you would have been clear by 6", it may not be enough to win the protest.

so what about a boatlength distance on the cross?

Is that enough room for STB to not feel they have to alter course to avoid Port?

Let's assume moderate wind 12-15 knots. Upwind direction outside of 3 boatlength circle

I think our boat speeds are often the same level as NFL receivers and D-backs (perhaps not to weather)i.e. enough to cause a violent collision. I'd be less concerned sailing a 4ksb.