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Rules #258020
03/04/13 08:45 AM
03/04/13 08:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
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pgp Offline OP
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Making the rounds of the innerwebs this morning, it looks like there are more and more foils and T-rudders. Maybe it's time...


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

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Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258024
03/04/13 10:52 AM
03/04/13 10:52 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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T-foils are allowed as long as max width is not exceeded.
Not much you can do in the main foils dept. though.

I dont know what the growth in the class looks like? I would think we want to wait a bit longer before going that route.

I agree that it looks like foils might be a viable options in a not to distant future. Still remains to be seen if they will be faster around the course smile Let the C-class guys go through a few more iterations on the topic..

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258025
03/04/13 11:05 AM
03/04/13 11:05 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Well, since dagger boards aren't required, why can't you use most any type of foil, as long as it doesn't have to fit through a dagger board trunk?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258030
03/04/13 12:18 PM
03/04/13 12:18 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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I dont understand the question.. Are you thinking outside the rules or inside?

Outside the rules anything goes.
Inside the rules the "practical" aspect is quite important for most. Flipping the boat on the side to clean off weeds and plastic bags is quite slow wink

I am leaning back and watching the developments. It is my opinion that it is currently to early for the F16 class to consider allowing foils. Let the pure development classes experiment a bit first. Or by all means, go off experimenting with an F16 platform and measure the performance up against a standard platform. I will totally support that! We should allow experimental platforms to race with the class but without scoring the experimentals.


Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258033
03/04/13 01:11 PM
03/04/13 01:11 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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Inside the rules.

I like the idea of experitmental boats.

IIRC, the rules don't allow appendages but don't require dagger boards. So, can you attach some sort of foil to the cross bar, or add a structure to support gybing boards?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258048
03/04/13 04:26 PM
03/04/13 04:26 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Gybing boards would be OK as long as they dont tilt inwards more than 6deg.

A horizontal foil attached to the cross bar would probably be against the "spirit of the rules" or something like that. From what I remember the rules were crafted to not allow full foiling by purpose.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258050
03/04/13 04:46 PM
03/04/13 04:46 PM
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pgp Offline OP
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Foiling seems to be the cause du jour. We'll see how it plays out I guess.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taJYT4eAiWE&feature=youtu.be

Last edited by pgp; 03/04/13 04:50 PM.

Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258065
03/05/13 06:48 AM
03/05/13 06:48 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258066
03/05/13 07:49 AM
03/05/13 07:49 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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He has a nice building blog as well.

http://raphael-censier.jimdo.com/catamaran-classe-a/6-photos-construction/

Cool to se homebuilt boats! Hope more people take up the interest.

The big question, is foiling faster, remains to be seen smile

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258068
03/05/13 08:17 AM
03/05/13 08:17 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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I think foiling is clearly faster, consider Sailrocket, Hydropter. Control seems to be an issue.

I was talking to an A class builder and he maintains their boats are now going to weather with only about 1/3 of the lee hull in the water. Imo, that has to be both higher and faster.

Btw, I exchanged posts with Wayne Marlow yesterday and he has put an A class rig on his F16. Any idea how that might work?



Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258069
03/05/13 08:47 AM
03/05/13 08:47 AM
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Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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An A class rig on a uni F16 should be very nice. Two up would perhaps be more load than the mast was designed for. We discussed this some time ago on this forum I believe as part of the "uni vs two-up" performance thread.

Consider "Rocker" C-class who was not faster than the other C-Class boats smile http://www.stevekilling.com/SteveKilling_CSYS2009.pdf


It still remains to be seen where development will go. Interesting time to watch and even perhaps play a bit.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258080
03/05/13 10:40 AM
03/05/13 10:40 AM
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Timbo Offline
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As I watched the last 30 seconds of that A cat video, it showed me exactly why I don't want to foil! Up down, Up down, you are basically riding a teeter-totter, and he was in flat, smooth water. Now, imagine trying to ride that hobby horse in some waves!

The previous video, with the Phantom, also shot while sailing on flat water, but obviously it has some type of foil on the rudders that is helping both to lift and stabilize the boat. I think that is the biggest problem to overcome, trying to keep the boat stable, up on the foils, while also going up and down over waves.

The C class Cats tried it a long time ago, and finally abandonded it, I thought because it was only faster when going downwind, not upwind?

So, if we are going to go down the Foiling road, we may need to change our race course layout to more reaching/downwind.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #258081
03/05/13 10:57 AM
03/05/13 10:57 AM
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Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
An A class rig on a uni F16 should be very nice. Two up would perhaps be more load than the mast was designed for. We discussed this some time ago on this forum I believe as part of the "uni vs two-up" performance thread.

Consider "Rocker" C-class who was not faster than the other C-Class boats smile http://www.stevekilling.com/SteveKilling_CSYS2009.pdf


It still remains to be seen where development will go. Interesting time to watch and even perhaps play a bit.


That's an excellent docutment Rolf, thanks for posting the link! Pete, skip on down and read all of page 15.

Here's one small part I pulled from there:

She proved very stable in both pitch and roll axes,
leading her crews to have confidence in their ability to
control her. In more breeze, at higher speeds, it proved
important to prevent her from riding too high, as the rudder
elevators, which were not as deep as the daggerboard
wings, could surface and ventilate, whereupon they would
lose lift and settle into the water. This pitched the bows up,
and as the boat continued forward she would then fly the
main foils out of the water, ventilate those, and crash (with
some measure of grace) back to the water surface. It was at
those times we were grateful to have used full-length hulls.
Importantly, we never capsized or pitchpoled the boat.
Figure 24


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258086
03/05/13 11:54 AM
03/05/13 11:54 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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So what's your take on canted boards?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258090
03/05/13 12:51 PM
03/05/13 12:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,117
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Foiling will kill every class, and everyone who's thought about it. Just look at the Moth.


I'm boatless.
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258091
03/05/13 12:57 PM
03/05/13 12:57 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Karl, was that sarcasm?

I thought the Moth class was actually getting more people joining, now that they foil.

Heck, I'm even considering it! Looks like fun!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SN1gSkqvy0

Although...Richard Branson makes Kite Surfing...with crew...look like MORE fun!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ4GrxFgAB4


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258093
03/05/13 01:02 PM
03/05/13 01:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Yeah, lots of sarcasm.
If a no limits board rule came up for vote in the F16 class, I'd vote yes.


I'm boatless.
Re: Rules [Re: Karl_Brogger] #258095
03/05/13 01:04 PM
03/05/13 01:04 PM
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Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Dude, just quit fighting it and get an A-cat.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258096
03/05/13 01:05 PM
03/05/13 01:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Who, me?

I told you, I can't afford it, or I'd have one already!

Too damn many kids, and horses!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: Timbo] #258100
03/05/13 01:23 PM
03/05/13 01:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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swap that F16 of yours for that yellow Marstrom Acat in GA ($9,000 +/-) It's made for old-dudes like us


Jay

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