| |  Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258070
03/05/13 08:54 AM 03/05/13 08:54 AM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek 
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Boston, Ma | The 2013-2016 RRS rewrote rule 20 which deals with room to tack at an obstruction. Rule 20.3 now allows for a hail to be passed on to an additional boat, even if the passed along hail no longer satisfies rule 20.1.
This applies well to the case of a stack of boats just after a start. As the leeward most boat approaches an obstruction, she can hail the boat to windward for room to tack. The windward boat must respond by either tacking, or replying "you tack" and giving the leeward boat room to tack and avoid her. If the windward boat is planning to respond by tacking, they can pass the hail on to the next boat in line, even if they are not close enough to the actual obstruction to satisfy 20.1.
As far as your rights as the tacking boat, the rules says:
20.2 (c) The hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.
So, the boat that hails must be given room to tack and avoid the boat to windward, but you are still a port tack boat upon completion of the tack and must give way to the rest of the starboard tackers.
Moral of the story- if there is a short distance from the pin to an obstruction, make sure that pin is favored so you have an escape path!
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| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258075
03/05/13 09:40 AM 03/05/13 09:40 AM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Boston, Ma | The rules say that the boat being hailed can reply "you tack." If they choose this option, they must give the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her. After that tack is complete, however, the port tack boat must keep clear of starboard tackers, it's simply rule 10 and rule 15.
In the case where boats are on starboard approaching on obstruction, the boat that hails for room will be taking from port to starboard, and acquiring right of way. In this case, their actions are limited by rule 15.
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| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258082
03/05/13 11:04 AM 03/05/13 11:04 AM |
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Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
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Hillsborough, NC USA | If there is room to pull off a tack but not cross but the following boats are so close that the tacking boat has to pull off a emergency bear away to duck. How is the distance or amount of room judged? Nothing in Rule 20 says that a boat may hail only one other boat. If a boat is in a position where she needs room to tack from multiple other boats, she can hail each of them, and each must respond under RRS 20. Room is judged according to the definition of room: "the space a boat needs in the existing conditions... while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way". An "emergency" bear away is not considered seamanlike. While tacking, and after tacking, the hailing boat is required to keep clear of the other starboard tack boats, but boat(s) hailed under rule 20 must either give her room to do so, or tack themselves. I hope that helps, Eric | | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258083
03/05/13 11:14 AM 03/05/13 11:14 AM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Boston, Ma | Eric,
I don't think that hailing multiple boats is the correct way to approach that situation. If I am multiple boats up the line from a boat that needs room to tack, I'm going to reply "you tack" every time because my position doesn't directly influence that boat's ability to tack.
Instead, passing the hail on according to rule 20.3 is a much better approach, at least in my reading of the rule and from seeing similar situations develop.
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| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: Jeff.Dusek]
#258089
03/05/13 12:27 PM 03/05/13 12:27 PM |
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Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
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Hillsborough, NC USA | Passing on the hail is for the case where the hailed boat needs to tack (in order to give the hailing boat room) but needs room from a third boat in order to do so.
As I read the original post, that is not the situation described. In this scenerio, the hailed boat is able to give room without passing on the hail, but the original hailing boat needs room from one or more additional boats.
Imagine, for example, a line of starboard-tack boats bow-to-stern on the layline to clear the end of a jetty (boats A, B, C, D, etc.). Just below the layline is another starboard-tack boat (boat Z). Z needs to tack to safely avoid the obstruction. She hails the boat beside her (A) for room. A can tack away without needing extra room from B. Therefore, A tacks without passing on Z's hail. There is not, however, enough room for Z to tack and cross B, nor enough room for her to tack and duck below B, C, D, etc. either.
In that instance, I believe Z could hail B for room to tack as well as A.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into the first question though. If instead of being bow-to-stern, the line of boats (A to D) were overlapped, then Z would hail A under rule 20.1. A would pass the hail on to B under rule 20.3. B would pass the hail on to C etc.
Regards,
Eric | | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258098
03/05/13 01:20 PM 03/05/13 01:20 PM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Boston, Ma | Eric,
I was thinking of the second situation you describe, because the OP mentioned the situation being right after a start.
For the fist incident, I agree that hailing more than one boat may be in order, would be a tricky situation.
Overall, we agree.
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| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258113
03/05/13 03:02 PM 03/05/13 03:02 PM |
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South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | In the situation that brought this up:
The first boat (Boat 1)to the wall had a boat behind and a little up (Boat 2). The hail was made and the first boat tacked at essentially the same time as the second. There was a slight lull with a header so instead of clearing the next starboard boats coming down the line (Boat 3) as it appeared they would have been able to do, before the first 2 boats had gone even 1/2 a boat length there is an impending collision. 1 and 2 are close enough that they both cannot bear away to duck without hitting each other and 1 is far enough across with no speed so the slow stalled tack would have placed them in a collision if the 3rd boat coming did not alter course and then boat 1 was back in the situation of having no water and no speed.
The beach discussion had boat 3 as the at fault boat even though they had no hail for failure to provide room. They were not hailed and the situation changed in such short time and distance, that only some really good sailing avoided a wreck. Boat 1 was on port even though they were not even settled in let alone moving to effectively maneuver. My question was how far do they have to go on port to be considered the non-right of way boat? Yes they were able to tack again, but that move placed them back in a no water position immediately after the tack.
Nah, the port boats are cheaters.  But, seriously, overlap can't possibly be a pre-requisite for giving room at an obstruction.
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258116
03/05/13 03:13 PM 03/05/13 03:13 PM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Boston, Ma | Giving room at an obstruction (rule 19) requires overlap. Room to tack at an obstruction (rule 20) does not.
mini,
Any chance you can draw up a diagram of the situation? Would make things much more clear. In my reading of the situation, Boat 2 would be at fault for not giving boat 1 room to duck boat 3 (assuming they were overlapped after both tacked). I don't see any reason to penalize boat 3- they were a starboard tack boat.
The correct thing to do would have been for boat 2 to pass the hail up the line to boat 3, then boat 3 would have obligations as outlined in rule 20.
Last edited by Jeff.Dusek; 03/05/13 03:15 PM.
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| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258118
03/05/13 03:23 PM 03/05/13 03:23 PM |
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Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
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Hillsborough, NC USA | My question was how far do they have to go on port to be considered the non-right of way boat? A tacking boat gives up right-of-way after she passes head-to-wind. See rule 13. Speaking hypothetically, in the situation you describe, since boat 1 did not hail boat 3 for room to tack (rule 20.1), and boat 2 did not pass along boat 1's hail (rule 20.3), boat 3 was not obligated to respond to either under rule 20.2. Boat 3 was only required to avoid contact if possible (rule 14). Boats 1 and 2 were required to keep clear of 3 (rule 10). If boat 3 needed to take action to avoid contact with boat 1 and/or boat 2, then boat 1 and/or boat 2 would have broken rule 10. | | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258123
03/05/13 04:09 PM 03/05/13 04:09 PM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Boston, Ma | Still sounds like boat 1 and 2 broke rule 10. Boat 3 avoided a collision, as they should, and should then protest the port tack boat(s).
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[Re: Isotope235]
#258127
03/05/13 05:01 PM 03/05/13 05:01 PM |
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| Wind shifts do not excuse boats from their obligations under the rules. Understood. Boat 1 had to tack when they did. When boat 1 started their tack boat 3 was under no obligations to also tack. The wind changed before the boats were on to port tack and under the new wind direction the position of the boats would have been such that boat 3 would have been in the line of obligation to provide room. This is unless a starboard boat can force the port boat to immediately tack back into a no water or almost no water situation, because there was not room to pull off a safe duck. | | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258128
03/05/13 05:17 PM 03/05/13 05:17 PM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Boston, Ma | Without a proper hail there is no "line of obligation to provide room." Boat 3 was a starboard ROW boat. Boat 1 broke 10 or 13.
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| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: Jeff.Dusek]
#258131
03/05/13 06:23 PM 03/05/13 06:23 PM |
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South Carolina Jake
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South Carolina | Without a proper hail there is no "line of obligation to provide room." Boat 3 was a starboard ROW boat. Boat 1 broke 10 or 13. Why do I get the feeling that both mini and Jeff.Dusek were involved in this incident?
Jake Kohl
| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258132
03/05/13 06:45 PM 03/05/13 06:45 PM |
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Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Boston, Ma | Not involved, just trying to answer the question. We had a talk on the changes in the 2013-2016 rules at frostbiting on Sunday, and one of the talking points was rule 20.3.
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| | | Re: ROW Rules
[Re: mini]
#258133
03/05/13 07:10 PM 03/05/13 07:10 PM |
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W Todd_Sails
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W | This reminds me precisely of what it's like to do the
'Rough Rider Regatta', especially when it used to go up the intercoastal waterway, for about a hundred miles.
There was usually a 'continuous obstruction' from the shallows outside the channel.
People that knew the rules played it fair, and sometimes a line of 3 or 4 boats would have to tack, b/c the lead boat was nearing the 'obstruction'- shallows.
That was usually about 10 boats out of 100+!
They even put the rule verbage in the NOR and R.I. at least one year.
Those were the days!
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