Announcements
New Discussions
Suggestions light wind big chop?
by fa1321. 05/08/21 07:26 AM
Downhaul under spinnaker
by CapriSun. 04/22/21 09:01 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Jake] #259327
05/03/13 08:39 AM
05/03/13 08:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Thanks Jake. Only thing that matters are longer legs and more weight, I can't do anything about the former.

Last edited by samc99us; 05/03/13 08:50 AM.

Scorpion F18
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: samc99us] #259328
05/03/13 08:53 AM
05/03/13 08:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Originally Posted by samc99us
Originally Posted by Jake
need more info on that "righting triangle"...sounds interesting...not familiar with it.


Jake see the top picture here for a photo: http://www.microwindracing.com/boat.html

I'm still not sure where the ends of this tie into the front beam?
Speak of pulling free, how do ya'll right the boat with the spinnaker up in a race situation? I.e if you wipeout downwind I've seen guys get the boat back upright without stuffing the chute back in the tube. I've never managed to get upright without stuffing the chute back in the tube, a time consuming process.

You can use the slot on the front beam where the tramp's boltrope slides into, take a 5mm line and put a knot on the end so it
doesn't pop out of the slot when you are righting the boat (it takes a while to get it in though, I used some pliers to pull it through).
We dont capsize often, but being able to right it quickly is the difference of losing a few places instead of becoming DFL smile

Dont see how you could right with a wet spinnaker hanging from the mast, doesnt sound like a good idea either (imagine swimming after a boat with the spin still up LOL!)

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259329
05/03/13 10:10 AM
05/03/13 10:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
old hand
bacho  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 774
Greenville SC
I've never been able to snuff the spin while the boat it's on it's side. I pop the halyard and normally it will right

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259346
05/04/13 12:47 AM
05/04/13 12:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 49
Israel, Sdot Yam
Opher Offline
newbie
Opher  Offline
newbie

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 49
Israel, Sdot Yam
Totally agree that this is the scariest point of sail, and double trapping in such conditions is really asking for trouble. A couple of years ago we were heading back to the beach, a few hundred meters out, aiming for a narrow opening in rocks that protect the landing area. A wave knocked us both off our feet and deposited us banging and floundering into the hull and each other (I think there was a similar movie here a couple of years back from the Tybee). Skipper lost the tiller, main fully released and the boat just hurtling along towards the rocks. I managed to get aboard somehow, unclipped to go back and got washed overboard again! Managed to hold on to the trap handle, clamber aboard and crawl astern to the rudder crossbar. Succeeded in heading into the wind about 50 meters before the rocks ... At 20 knots that's about 5 seconds to total destruction!!
We rarely double trap jib reach anymore, forfeiting some righting moment for a bit of safety, especially those 20 degrees where there is nothing you can do to depower - steering up or down are equally useless, dumping the main possibly even harms... That leaves praying, and if I thought that would help I'd probably spend Saturday morning in synagogue instead of jib reaching.
We also try to sheet in and travel out, and I like the idea of sheeting out the jib. Still not sure what to do with the main when you stuff it...

We use a drogue routinely when we go over. It is stored in the tramp with the righting line, and attached to the righting line close to the bitter end, just where it enters the bag. Pull it out and drop it in the water, within a few seconds it slows the boat, still abeam the wind. Crawl forward with the line and tie off on bridle, and the boat swings head to wind (I don't use the carabiner as it is liable to snag over time in the tramp). Now you have a nice tame cat, head to wind, drifting at 1 knot, ready to be organized for righting, righted, boarded and organized for sailing, all calmly and as risk free as it gets.
We also board with the trap lines, feet first, easiest way. But, if the boat is trying to escape drogueless, getting there is dangerous. So, before the drogue we would head back between the hulls, holding on either to the tramp lacing or a dedicated line some guys have for that purpose under the tramp. Reach the rudders, steer up into the wind and clamber over the rear beam.


Opher
Nacra F20C ISR1
F18 Cirrus ISR2
Sdot Yam, ISRAEL
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259358
05/05/13 11:10 PM
05/05/13 11:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
There is the technique of boarding a cat after capsize-
WHILE it's righting!

A technique I learned from Chris Green- never actully practised it with him however.

When you are at the point when the mast comes off the water, and the boat starts to right-
you throw a leg/ body, arms, whatenver is easier for you onto the formally bottom hull and begin to get on the tramp on that gront corner as the tramp goes from vertical to horizontal.

It takes a bit of practice, and oh, you gotta be fast, faster than that!

It works though, and when timed right is the quickest and easiet way to get back on a cat the is being righted.
Really only works for one person though, then the other does the outside trap handle thing, or is helped back on by the crew on the boat.


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Todd_Sails] #259359
05/06/13 05:53 AM
05/06/13 05:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
I do a modified version of what Jake mentioned. While hanging on to the crossbeam, I find the dagger board with my foot and get my leg to the outside of it and duck under the boat. The board ends up between my legs. My opposite leg now is wrapped around it with my knee bent as I pop up on the other side. I reach up with one hand, find the shroud, then find a trap handle. Then I throw one leg on the hull and pull myself with the trap handle up on the boat. When you have a full camelback and a pfd with a radio and other safety gear, it can be a bit more added weight that you realize that you have to pull up but this worked many times for my 280 pound butt (which is 53 pounds lighter now).


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259377
05/06/13 06:43 PM
05/06/13 06:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
Sloansailing Offline
member
Sloansailing  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 172
Anacortes
The jib reaching technique I've come to like is this:

Driver sitting on the hull, far aft at rear beam, traveler line in hand.

Crew on the wire, chicken line attached, in downwind position in footstrap, mainsheet in hand.

Make sure the jib is eased plenty.

Driver plays the traveler and crew plays the mainsheet. Its probably not as fast as twin wire but a lot safer.

The other important thing to know is whether its up or down for the "escape", i.e. is it closer to sail upwind to depower or downwind to depower. When jib reaching its important to know this and for both driver and crew to know which way the driver is going to turn in a last ditch effort to depower if the boat really loads up. Usually we just say "up escape" or "down escape". And if it gets really bad, turn up hard and let everything go, cause if you're eased out a lot already, a "down escape" will still be pretty powered up (as others have mentioned) and you won't be able to keep the bows above the water.

Last edited by Sloansailing; 05/06/13 06:45 PM.

Anacortes Rigging.com
Rigging and Yacht Services
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259390
05/07/13 09:47 AM
05/07/13 09:47 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
It's all great in theory. What do you do when you can't go up (non-movable mark, i.e a lighthouse) and you can't go down (30 footer below you). I can say you don't seem to have a long enough main sheet in those conditions...


Scorpion F18
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: samc99us] #259406
05/08/13 01:37 AM
05/08/13 01:37 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
In that case, close your mouth, go twin wire and hang on. According to the badasses here that is the route to go (and what we will practice) smile

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259407
05/08/13 07:14 AM
05/08/13 07:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast
O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
Traveler all the way down. Both skipper and crew all the way at the back of the bus. We are talking about jib reaching not spin reaching.

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: orphan] #259408
05/08/13 09:08 AM
05/08/13 09:08 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by orphan
Traveler all the way down. Both skipper and crew all the way at the back of the bus. We are talking about jib reaching not spin reaching.


Both on the wire, sitting in or a combination?

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259410
05/08/13 09:46 AM
05/08/13 09:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
whatever keeps the bow from stuffing


Jay

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259421
05/08/13 01:54 PM
05/08/13 01:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Soooo we went for a swim on the Infusion yesterday. Mostly broken crew, broken egos, and a few chips out of the dagger board trailing edge. We flipped going downwind with the spinnaker up, it's my fault I loosened the foot straps too much and my crew went flying forward as the bow stuffed a bit.

There really is no place to climb back on. We got lucky, really lucky. While I was holding the boat down with the dolphin striker, my crew was trying to get back on the boat. She is strong but not tall enough, there is a lot of volume! She ended up getting separated from the boat (never good), I had to duck under the hull, hold the dolphin striker with one hand, get my body outside the boat, briefly let go of the dolphin striker than find the side stay and start climbing aboard. Then go rescue my crew single handed in breeze and short chop. It wasn't a pretty rescue, hence the broken crew.

In hindsight we should have stayed on the boat and gone deep. Not as fast per se but upside down isn't fast either. Talking with some of the other teams, sitting on the back of the bus may be faster than getting on the wire if you don't have a lot of butt out there. Flat is fast but flat also powers up the main more, driving the bows down more? Thoughts? My personal opinion is the wave state and crew experience level matter most. You don't gain much fore and aft moment getting the crew on the wire but it is faster if the wave state is safe and the crew is comfortable on the wire.

I'll also add that single wire jib reaching deep down in big breeze is generally much safer and faster than spinnaker reaching in said conditions, even if the big boys are carrying the spinnaker they might not be for too long. It's hard to douse once it's up!

Last edited by samc99us; 05/08/13 01:57 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259422
05/08/13 01:55 PM
05/08/13 01:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast
O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
Depends on the conditions and ability of crew. I remember on MKL where I was on the wire with my front foot braced against the rear cross bar and the crew halfway behind me. 44 miles never tacked, never came off the wire. If trapped and big waves it helps to have a chicken line.

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: orphan] #259424
05/08/13 02:21 PM
05/08/13 02:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
+1 on the chicken line has saved many a crew. Not very practical in a buoy race situation though.


Scorpion F18
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #259435
05/09/13 05:14 AM
05/09/13 05:14 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
whatever keeps the bow from stuffing


Ok. Can we try to quantify that for racing around the cans (no chicken wire):

1: Wind strength (should be easy).
Up to 8m/s sit in.
9-12 single trap.
13 and above double trap?
*add pucker factor as needed and inversely proportional to gust factor.
2: Seastate:
Flat -> Go for it
Chop -> keep the bows a bit up
Short waves (messy) -> Double trap
Rolling houses - single trap or sit in



Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: samc99us] #259438
05/09/13 06:48 AM
05/09/13 06:48 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
addict
Dlennard  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Originally Posted by samc99us
+1 on the chicken line has saved many a crew. Not very practical in a buoy race situation though.


I think it is a lot faster when you are on the wire and the chicken line we use you just pull out and hook on the cleat on your harness.

Last edited by Dlennard; 05/09/13 09:15 PM.
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259439
05/09/13 06:50 AM
05/09/13 06:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast
O

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
The rolling houses don't bother be as much as the short steep stuff. I seem to stuff more often in the short/steep.

Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259464
05/09/13 02:01 PM
05/09/13 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 522
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
addict
northsea junkie  Offline
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 522
Petten Netherlands
Just to give another view on the subject of jib reaching, I enclose a little vid I made this afternoon when reaching on my northsea-spot.
Extra problem was a little biassed swell direction which made the outgoing course a little slower. And the returning ingoing course a bit more tricky because of pushing waves from behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eogpeZjMnc&feature=youtu.be

On the outgoing course, I was ofcourse on the wire, in my footstrap, but ingoing was too tricky for that.


Last edited by northsea junkie; 05/09/13 02:16 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Jib reaching. Aaaaaggghhh!! [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #259504
05/09/13 09:26 PM
05/09/13 09:26 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
I love the reach, we had a good swell with steep chop and were wave jumping on the reach at Last Sundays Rum race here in South Aus here's a bit of the reach and the transition to downwind goes well with the ACDC song
http://youtu.be/la-z17VsV6E

Attached Files
Wave jumping 3.jpg (31 downloads)
Last edited by JeffS; 05/09/13 09:42 PM.

Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 50 guests, and 241 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BowWave, Joachim, GilliganF80, heretic, Carlos_Ledo
8104 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
fa1321 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,387
Posts267,025
Members8,104
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1