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New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? #259796
05/23/13 08:47 AM
05/23/13 08:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Catamaran sailors have been upgrading their toys as a way of life since the begining.

We seem to have two personalities.... The traditional monohhull like one design personality stays with their class and upgrades the toy as needed... The Hobie 16 class is our best example. The fun factor is found in the stength in numbers.

The other mindset is ... we play with cats for the thrills, spills, and pushing the edge.. We change our toys when the next cool thing comes into view and we can get one. We have dozens of better faster one design classes now in the dead boat society. The fun factor was in the more, better, bigger.

So... now we have flying boats. Tony just posted the Flying Phanton vids... a new class altogether... The A class development wizards seem to have managed to get the boat to fly within the rule which asserted that the boats would not fly. the Nacra c20 boat has been modded to fly as well.

So... Where do you play with your toy. What games do you take the toy to.

Where does that flying phantom go to race. 26 knots in 10 knots true ... that is a game change!!!


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259799
05/23/13 09:15 AM
05/23/13 09:15 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Mark bring one to West River and let us know how those foils feel on the rocks flying feels outside Thursdays.

Last edited by samc99us; 05/23/13 10:09 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259800
05/23/13 09:21 AM
05/23/13 09:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I'm still in a wait and see mode - I think a lot of this foiling will exclude inland lake sailors where the breezes aren't steady enough to support foiling on a regular basis. The current foiling is pretty limited to the developmental companies and a hand full of elite sailors in the sport for the time being. Time will tell if it can actually trickle down to the masses. However, I'm not hearing about the same kind of hesitation that we've heard in years past out of the class managements...I guess we'll just have to see what happens.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259801
05/23/13 09:46 AM
05/23/13 09:46 AM
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samc99us Offline
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I posted the reality over on SA, but who there listens. Who will be racing these? We already have a fairly split U.S fleet of F16's and F18's, plus the A's and the Hobie 16's. Lets not forget the Nacra Olympic 17 (there are what 5 F20C's stateside?). How do we get attendance up? Will there be more beach cat sailors total on the water if we switch to flying boats? Or are we pouching from the not-high-enough numbers of other classes?


I'm with Jake, but furthermore spending >$20K on a beach cat starts to get questionable. I know it's racing but my budget isn't unlimited. Breaking these foils, dealing with a 10' wide platform etc. adds up to time and money. If Phantom wants to send me a Flying Phantom and pay me to sail it plus do aero R&D work that is another story. But I am not that great of a sailor and I'm not Tom Speers either.



Scorpion F18
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259804
05/23/13 10:04 AM
05/23/13 10:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Jesus you whine about hitting stuff with your boards.


I'm boatless.
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #259805
05/23/13 10:08 AM
05/23/13 10:08 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Sorry Karl didn't mean to make you jealous because mine are longer than yours.

Last edited by samc99us; 05/23/13 10:11 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259806
05/23/13 10:16 AM
05/23/13 10:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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I am the jealous type. lol
I'm running the standard C2 boards, so it's not like I've got short board syndrome.


I'm boatless.
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #259807
05/23/13 10:23 AM
05/23/13 10:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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It's how you use them, gentlemen.


Jake Kohl
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: samc99us] #259808
05/23/13 10:24 AM
05/23/13 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Annapolis, MD
Quote
How do we get attendance up? Will there be more beach cat sailors total on the water if we switch to flying boats? Or are we pouching from the not-high-enough numbers of other classes?


Well history would argue for the churn (some new people into the game... more sailors cycling out of the sport)

Darline Hobock, would periodicaly ask... WHAT IS IT WITH YOU CAT SAILORS... Why do you have multiple versions of a class... What don't you understand about one design... Like my thistle... My answer... it is in the DNA, we are just different.... I need a rating for a XXX?

Still... you have to have a game to take your new toy... What is it?..
Handciap buoy racing....(HAH!)
Handicap Steeple chase type racing... 20-30 mile point to point
Handicap Distance racing... (Great Texas)

So... you won't have a fleet of any of the new toys in less then three years... So... what OD fleet lets the new toys play.... and will that make people happy.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259810
05/23/13 10:36 AM
05/23/13 10:36 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Ok that new Phantom video is pretty sick. Let me know if you need crew. Though my current driver might make you happier she makes all the boys jealous.

Karl, in true jealous fashion any news on the Foiling Viper upgrade package? That might be the ticket, F16 by day and weapon by night...

Last edited by samc99us; 05/23/13 10:38 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259812
05/23/13 11:13 AM
05/23/13 11:13 AM
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Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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I am having a hard time convincing myself to spend $10k on a old news F18. Even if I won the lotto I don't see myself quadrupling that price for one that rides a few inches off the water.

Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: bacho] #259813
05/23/13 11:18 AM
05/23/13 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bacho
I am having a hard time convincing myself to spend $10k on a old news F18. Even if I won the lotto I don't see myself quadrupling that price for one that rides a few inches off the water.

Dude, with all the money you have spent recently on boats, sails, masts, etc. you could have easily bought one of these. Just saying . . .


Philip
USA #1006
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259814
05/23/13 11:34 AM
05/23/13 11:34 AM
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Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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My total cash investment in my I20 is low, less than the F18 I mentioned. Old parts are sold before money can be spent on new parts.

I see having X dollars invested in a number of boats or other toys differently than that same amount in one item.

Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259815
05/23/13 12:29 PM
05/23/13 12:29 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Philip is right. Having X dollars split amongst 2-3 boats means they are all slow usually. Unless X is a large number and you can afford to pay others to do maintenance. Keeping more than 1 race boat in inventory is very $$ for all but the pros, not their dollars.

F18 is a great class right now because buying new parts adds appreciation to your boat. See that N20 listed for dirt cheap with a $4K set of sails? Yeah glad I sold mine when I did, even though it's still one of the best boats ever built.

That's the thing, I can't afford to keep the F18 fed AND X foiler fed. So I'll be the last to switch unless I win the lottery.


Scorpion F18
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: samc99us] #259816
05/23/13 12:51 PM
05/23/13 12:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Ah... it quickly comes to to the Benjamins..

The monohull guys have threads like what is the cost to campaign. They use the east coast signature events like Key West, Charlston, Annapolis, Block Island etc and then NA's. For example, A cats have their 4 event (two days each) Florida Winter series and their week long NA's.

What is the basic national level campaign for your class and what are the costs for the campaign?
Transportation, Housing, Food, Sails, Coaching and the equipment upgrades/ replacement schedule to be competitive.

Of course, a regional campaign will be much less.... so how much do you budget and how far do you travel for your regional campaign of 10 boat fleets.

The problem for the new toys will be... What exactly is that campaign.... You need events that you want to compete and win at... What would you take a flying boat to??


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Mark Schneider] #259817
05/23/13 01:30 PM
05/23/13 01:30 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Mark here is my breakdown for this years F18 campaign:

3 day weekend events:
8 hr drive each way=500 miles round trip=$100 in fuel+$50 in tolls=$150.
Hotel=$125*3=$375
Food=$30/person/day=$180
Booze=$50
Regatta Entry Fee=$75
Total=$830

Fortunately most regatta sites have camping available so you get closer to $500 for a weekend.

Nationals:
Entry Fee: $375
Fuel: $315
Food: 7*30*2: $420
Housing: Free for me (family next to the 2013 site)
Total: $1110

Catacup:
Entry Fee: $1000
Airfare: 700*2=$1400
Food: 6*50*2=$600
Incidentals=$300
Total=$3300

We're doing ~4x weekend travel events (sailing near every weekend)+Nationals+Catacup=$7730 in travel costs.

I'm looking at a new jib and spinnaker before Nationals at the least so another $2K in sails. Factor in about $2k in incidentals (broken parts, spar parts, insurance, trailer maintenance etc.), and you're at $11,730. My boat cost a little over $12K.

Looking at the costs, the easiest way to cut back is on food and hotels, not much you can do about the rest. Fortunately food is included in many race registrations and my number is based on our Tybee 500 numbers from years past. Also my teammate is a good cook and knows how to eat well for cheap, so money can be saved. Knock on wood we keep the boat in one piece so things are a little bit cheaper there.

But these numbers prove a point, the cost of the boat isn't really that much relative to the cost of campaigning. Just that it's a big one time hit versus smaller hits over time.

If I owned a flying boat I'd be hard pressed to do a major distance race with it unless sponsored by the boat manufacturer. I know I'm a pussy when it comes to foils (comes with being an air head) but I have seen new boats go through foils faster than the dollar bills could escape the wallet in major distance races. So that would leave travel events, oh wait no class, then your down to portsmouth events which locally are basically steeplechase distance races.


Scorpion F18
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: samc99us] #259818
05/23/13 01:48 PM
05/23/13 01:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us

Booze=$50

weak


Philip
USA #1006
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: samc99us] #259821
05/23/13 02:59 PM
05/23/13 02:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
Mark here is my breakdown for this years F18 campaign:

3 day weekend events:
8 hr drive each way=500 miles round trip=$100 in fuel+$50 in tolls=$150.
Hotel=$125*3=$375
Food=$30/person/day=$180
Booze=$50
Regatta Entry Fee=$75
Total=$830

Fortunately most regatta sites have camping available so you get closer to $500 for a weekend.

Nationals:
Entry Fee: $375
Fuel: $315
Food: 7*30*2: $420
Housing: Free for me (family next to the 2013 site)
Total: $1110

Catacup:
Entry Fee: $1000
Airfare: 700*2=$1400
Food: 6*50*2=$600
Incidentals=$300
Total=$3300

We're doing ~4x weekend travel events (sailing near every weekend)+Nationals+Catacup=$7730 in travel costs.

I'm looking at a new jib and spinnaker before Nationals at the least so another $2K in sails. Factor in about $2k in incidentals (broken parts, spar parts, insurance, trailer maintenance etc.), and you're at $11,730. My boat cost a little over $12K.

Looking at the costs, the easiest way to cut back is on food and hotels, not much you can do about the rest. Fortunately food is included in many race registrations and my number is based on our Tybee 500 numbers from years past. Also my teammate is a good cook and knows how to eat well for cheap, so money can be saved. Knock on wood we keep the boat in one piece so things are a little bit cheaper there.

But these numbers prove a point, the cost of the boat isn't really that much relative to the cost of campaigning. Just that it's a big one time hit versus smaller hits over time.

If I owned a flying boat I'd be hard pressed to do a major distance race with it unless sponsored by the boat manufacturer. I know I'm a pussy when it comes to foils (comes with being an air head) but I have seen new boats go through foils faster than the dollar bills could escape the wallet in major distance races. So that would leave travel events, oh wait no class, then your down to portsmouth events which locally are basically steeplechase distance races.


I think that is why sailing is on the decline the cost is just to much unless you can sail at your local club and don't have far to drive. To do our regatta series cost me around 3,300.00 for fuel and entry fees per year and 120 hours of driving. The mountain biking for 6 races cost 270.00 for fuel and entry (can carpool) and I won 335.00 so out of pocket was zero.

Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: Dlennard] #259822
05/23/13 03:16 PM
05/23/13 03:16 PM
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Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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Originally Posted by Dlennard
Originally Posted by samc99us
Mark here is my breakdown for this years F18 campaign:

3 day weekend events:
8 hr drive each way=500 miles round trip=$100 in fuel+$50 in tolls=$150.
Hotel=$125*3=$375
Food=$30/person/day=$180
Booze=$50
Regatta Entry Fee=$75
Total=$830

Fortunately most regatta sites have camping available so you get closer to $500 for a weekend.

Nationals:
Entry Fee: $375
Fuel: $315
Food: 7*30*2: $420
Housing: Free for me (family next to the 2013 site)
Total: $1110

Catacup:
Entry Fee: $1000
Airfare: 700*2=$1400
Food: 6*50*2=$600
Incidentals=$300
Total=$3300

We're doing ~4x weekend travel events (sailing near every weekend)+Nationals+Catacup=$7730 in travel costs.

I'm looking at a new jib and spinnaker before Nationals at the least so another $2K in sails. Factor in about $2k in incidentals (broken parts, spar parts, insurance, trailer maintenance etc.), and you're at $11,730. My boat cost a little over $12K.

Looking at the costs, the easiest way to cut back is on food and hotels, not much you can do about the rest. Fortunately food is included in many race registrations and my number is based on our Tybee 500 numbers from years past. Also my teammate is a good cook and knows how to eat well for cheap, so money can be saved. Knock on wood we keep the boat in one piece so things are a little bit cheaper there.

But these numbers prove a point, the cost of the boat isn't really that much relative to the cost of campaigning. Just that it's a big one time hit versus smaller hits over time.

If I owned a flying boat I'd be hard pressed to do a major distance race with it unless sponsored by the boat manufacturer. I know I'm a pussy when it comes to foils (comes with being an air head) but I have seen new boats go through foils faster than the dollar bills could escape the wallet in major distance races. So that would leave travel events, oh wait no class, then your down to portsmouth events which locally are basically steeplechase distance races.


I think that is why sailing is on the decline the cost is just to much unless you can sail at your local club and don't have far to drive. To do our regatta series cost me around 3,300.00 for fuel and entry fees per year and 120 hours of driving. The mountain biking for 6 races cost 270.00 for fuel and entry (can carpool) and I won 335.00 so out of pocket was zero.


While that is certainly a valid argument it is not exactly comparing apples to apples. I can run a 5k every weekend locally nearly every weekend for the cost of a pair of running shoes and some nominal entry fees, but that is not my choice of sport, sailing is. Now compare the cost of campaigning a F18 to the cost of a melges 24 and see how we look!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: New Game change Toys Coming..What games will they play in? [Re: ksurfer2] #259823
05/23/13 03:34 PM
05/23/13 03:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Dlennard Offline
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Dlennard  Offline
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Posts: 602
Wilmington,NC
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Originally Posted by Dlennard
Originally Posted by samc99us
Mark here is my breakdown for this years F18 campaign:

3 day weekend events:
8 hr drive each way=500 miles round trip=$100 in fuel+$50 in tolls=$150.
Hotel=$125*3=$375
Food=$30/person/day=$180
Booze=$50
Regatta Entry Fee=$75
Total=$830

Fortunately most regatta sites have camping available so you get closer to $500 for a weekend.

Nationals:
Entry Fee: $375
Fuel: $315
Food: 7*30*2: $420
Housing: Free for me (family next to the 2013 site)
Total: $1110

Catacup:
Entry Fee: $1000
Airfare: 700*2=$1400
Food: 6*50*2=$600
Incidentals=$300
Total=$3300

We're doing ~4x weekend travel events (sailing near every weekend)+Nationals+Catacup=$7730 in travel costs.

I'm looking at a new jib and spinnaker before Nationals at the least so another $2K in sails. Factor in about $2k in incidentals (broken parts, spar parts, insurance, trailer maintenance etc.), and you're at $11,730. My boat cost a little over $12K.

Looking at the costs, the easiest way to cut back is on food and hotels, not much you can do about the rest. Fortunately food is included in many race registrations and my number is based on our Tybee 500 numbers from years past. Also my teammate is a good cook and knows how to eat well for cheap, so money can be saved. Knock on wood we keep the boat in one piece so things are a little bit cheaper there.

But these numbers prove a point, the cost of the boat isn't really that much relative to the cost of campaigning. Just that it's a big one time hit versus smaller hits over time.

If I owned a flying boat I'd be hard pressed to do a major distance race with it unless sponsored by the boat manufacturer. I know I'm a pussy when it comes to foils (comes with being an air head) but I have seen new boats go through foils faster than the dollar bills could escape the wallet in major distance races. So that would leave travel events, oh wait no class, then your down to portsmouth events which locally are basically steeplechase distance races.


I think that is why sailing is on the decline the cost is just to much unless you can sail at your local club and don't have far to drive. To do our regatta series cost me around 3,300.00 for fuel and entry fees per year and 120 hours of driving. The mountain biking for 6 races cost 270.00 for fuel and entry (can carpool) and I won 335.00 so out of pocket was zero.


While that is certainly a valid argument it is not exactly comparing apples to apples. I can run a 5k every weekend locally nearly every weekend for the cost of a pair of running shoes and some nominal entry fees, but that is not my choice of sport, sailing is. Now compare the cost of campaigning a F18 to the cost of a melges 24 and see how we look!


True, just pointing out that at some point sailing is not as fun when cost and driving become to high. If I lived in Fl like you it would be my favorite sport. I would guess that younger sailors do not have the budget to go to a lot of regattas let along the cost of the new boats. My first H 16 brand new was 5,500.00 and a weekend regatta cost 30.00 just to show my age.

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