Announcements
New Discussions
Polar Diagrams for beach catamarans?
by Frank N. 05/04/22 07:38 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Rules Question; shorten course #260596
06/23/13 09:02 AM
06/23/13 09:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I think we touched on this in another thread by I can't find it. We sail mostly on lakes, so we see shortened courses fairly often due to changing wind conditions. We were racing at my local club yesterday and the race committee set a standard course with a windward and leward mark (A and C) and finish line roughly in the middle of the course. The course called for two laps with an upwind finish. We had some nice wind at the start that quickly faded (naturally, right at the start signal). Given the time that had transpired the race committee decided to shorten course. We're leading the fleet and they pulled up and set anchor to the left of C-mark and we had completed a little more than 2/3 of that leg from A to C. We ran into this a couple of weeks ago at my club and the fleet sailed directly through the line, ignoring the "proper" way to round C mark. I was about the third boat in that mixed fleet race and, unsure of exactly how we should finish, followed suit and we were all scored.

As I approached the finish line yesterday (in the lead this time) I rolled my eyes and cursed myself for not knowing the right answer on how to finish this race but given that I was scored last time by ignoring C as a mark, I sailed straight down the course and through the line (what was C mark now to starboard). I watched for the horn on the committee boat, saw her lift it up and hold it in the air (for what seemed like an eternity) and the horn went back down without a sound. I spun the boat hard, came back across the line, rounded C-mark, and crossed the line in the opposite direction and got the horn (whistle). Some boats behind me finished straight through, some others finished by rounding the mark first.

One extremely knowledgeable sailor (who was the second boat to approach the finish) insisted that the proper finish was the sail "from the direction of the last mark" straight through the finish line as per the how a finish line is defined in the RRS and how I had attempted to finish initially. A protest was filed and we'll hopefully get this resolved (and get the RC back to the right of the mark so this question doesn't have to come up again!). I spoke with the race committee after the race and they explained they started setting the shorten course this way because someone complained that by setting the finish line to the right of the mark favored those that were coming down the right side (as you are sailing) of the course. I can probably see this argument if the race committee is very late getting the shorten course established...but it's not much of a difference. To compensate, they started setting a shorten course to the left of the mark (as it is being approached) thinking that the fleet would need to round the mark first and it would eliminate the favor of extending the target (the mark or the finish line) to one side more than the other. Hopefully this will be an opportunity to get them to shorten on the right side (mark to port) of the mark so there will not be any question.

So, is it correct to sail straight through the line and ignore C-mark or round C-mark first and then finish as part of your rounding?


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260597
06/23/13 09:25 AM
06/23/13 09:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Straight through.

Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260601
06/23/13 12:56 PM
06/23/13 12:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Time to have a beer with that race officer. So much easier to set up the finish boat on the left side (looking upwind) of the bottom mark and avoid confusion. The price is the time lost sitting in the room - maybe this lesson will be enough. If you set a right-sized finish line, there is no favor.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: John Williams] #260605
06/23/13 07:33 PM
06/23/13 07:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Unless the sailing instructions specifies otherwise,
Quote
32.2 If the race committee signals a shortened course (displays flag S with two sounds), the finishing line shall be,
(a) at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S;
(b) at a line boats are required to cross at the end of each lap, that line;
(c) at a gate, between the gate marks.
The shortened course shall be signalled before the first boat crosses the finishing line.

32.2(a) applies. Finish line is between the "S" flag and the mark, no matter which side the RC sets up on. "J-hook" finishes are not required (ISAF Case 45).

Sound signals at the finish line are a courtesy, not a requirement - in other words, they mean nothing - and the absence of them means nothing.

Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260607
06/23/13 11:42 PM
06/23/13 11:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
While you are technically correct, of course Matt, I think Jake's sharp eye indicated that the absence of a sound signal when a horn was held aloft for his first finish was significant. In this case, without crawling inside the committee's head, I think they were indeed looking for a J-hook, improper as it was. Jake, you'll have to let us know how the hearing comes out. Can o' worms, for sure.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260610
06/24/13 12:53 AM
06/24/13 12:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Straight through is the way, you are in the right.

Even if it is obvious that the committee want you to do a hook finish, you have to go straight through because there is always some clever dick at the back of the fleet that will do it right and get everyone else pinged.


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: John Williams] #260614
06/24/13 06:51 AM
06/24/13 06:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by John Williams
While you are technically correct, of course Matt, I think Jake's sharp eye indicated that the absence of a sound signal when a horn was held aloft for his first finish was significant. In this case, without crawling inside the committee's head, I think they were indeed looking for a J-hook, improper as it was. Jake, you'll have to let us know how the hearing comes out. Can o' worms, for sure.


I did have a conversation with the RC afterwards (we are friends...heck, we're all friends) and discussed it - I wasn't sure at the time myself. The protest was held and it was determined that the proper finish was straight through the line from the direction of the last mark (not rounding C). The race committee had recorded times for everyone that finished each way and recorded who finished in what direction (which was pretty smart). While maybe not technically correct, the decision was made to finish everyone at the time that they crossed the line and I thought I heard that they made a slight adjustment in the time for the guys that rounded C before finishing (I may have heard that wrong). Everyone seemed pleased with the solution.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260617
06/24/13 09:18 AM
06/24/13 09:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Did they say if they would be changing the way they set the finishing boat in the future? Could save themselves some angst ...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: John Williams] #260619
06/24/13 09:35 AM
06/24/13 09:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I am presuming the RC/finish boat was displaying the proper flag?

Was any other notification of shortened course given during the race?


Jay

Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: John Williams] #260623
06/24/13 10:00 AM
06/24/13 10:00 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by John Williams
Did they say if they would be changing the way they set the finishing boat in the future? Could save themselves some angst ...


I wasn't there for the protest but I did discuss it with them prior and I think there was an aha moment when I mentioned it. That's when I discovered that they had been setting to the left in response to a complaint that setting a shortened course at a mark favors the boats to the side on which the line was set (thinking the sailors would need to round the mark before finishing).

I'm still not sure how the line can favor those to the right unless it is set really long and skewed heavily to opposite side from the mark. It's either that or someone was really out of racing position and not optimized to sail to the mark to begin with.

I think the correct method is to set the finish line to the right of the mark (as viewed while approaching it from the course), the line be as short as reasonable (3-4 boat lengths in a 12 boat fleet) but drop the line back to skew it slightly to favor the mark end but not so much that there is any question as to what side of the line is facing the direction of the last mark.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260624
06/24/13 10:24 AM
06/24/13 10:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
The correct method is to fly the S flag with two sounds, period. No prior signals are required (or advisable, just adds confusion).

The most fair method is to anchor to the left side (looking upwind), setting a line that is no shorter than 6 lengths (mark room on both sides), and is square.

The ideal method is to use a leeward gate, and fly the flag close to one of the gates (so you can call close finishes and no one tries to finish between the mark and the boat). PU taught me to tie up to the mark's anchor, with the mark alongside the boat, or even in it.

The redress in this case sounds like the fairest arrangement given the circumstances. If the RC still thinks they did the right thing, walk them through a scenario where a boat would hook the mark while another comes in under spinnaker, finishing per the book...

Hope this helps.

Mike

Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: brucat] #260653
06/25/13 09:46 AM
06/25/13 09:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by brucat

The most fair method is to anchor to the left side (looking upwind), setting a line that is no shorter than 6 lengths (mark room on both sides), and is square.



I don't think there is any way to really make a shortened course fair for everyone.

By then the race is already a crap shoot and you are just trying to save a race that otherwise doesn't prove much.

The only fair way is to toss it, but those who are leading will feel cheated, of course.

Rarely when there is a shortened course do many or any of the racers actually know what to do, making it even more of a crap shoot.

Just my opinion.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260659
06/25/13 11:30 AM
06/25/13 11:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
That's a valid opinion, which is actually shared by many folks. There are classes who have policies that forbid shortening or even changing the length of a leg. If the time limit expires, the race is abandoned.

On the flip side, there are those who get very upset when races are abandoned, regardless of the reason.

Mike

Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: brucat] #260663
06/25/13 12:20 PM
06/25/13 12:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by brucat
That's a valid opinion, which is actually shared by many folks. There are classes who have policies that forbid shortening or even changing the length of a leg. If the time limit expires, the race is abandoned.

On the flip side, there are those who get very upset when races are abandoned, regardless of the reason.

Mike


We would probably lose about 25% of our club races if we didn't allow for a shortened course. It's reasonable for us and man, talk about being upset if I invested an hour into a race (not to mention the morning driving out to the club, cleaning up the boat, scrubbing the bottom, stocking the cooler, etc) leading the race, and have it abandoned. Makes me mad just thinking about it!


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260664
06/25/13 01:23 PM
06/25/13 01:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Like all things in life, there are lots of sides and back stories. Most often, if a class has adopted such a draconian measure, it's in response to having too many races screwed up by RC errors, so instead of educating the RCs, they add knee-jerk policies which tie their hands. After a while, sailors get used to it, and justify that as the most fair thing to do ("If the wind quits, it's equally unfair to all").

People like paradigms. I love being told that we can't have downwind finishes for large fleets of Lasers or Optics because the sails have too many digits. Hint: nothing has more digits than a Hobie 16...

Mike

Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: brucat] #260666
06/25/13 02:01 PM
06/25/13 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Originally Posted by brucat
Hint: nothing has more digits than a Hobie 16...


I disagree, Mike - the Aussie 18 Skiff, for example, can have up to 50% more digits than a Hobie 16, baring some form of disfigurement...


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: John Williams] #260667
06/25/13 02:13 PM
06/25/13 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by John Williams
Originally Posted by brucat
Hint: nothing has more digits than a Hobie 16...


I disagree, Mike - the Aussie 18 Skiff, for example, can have up to 50% more digits than a Hobie 16, baring some form of disfigurement...


doh


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260674
06/25/13 06:32 PM
06/25/13 06:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Someone has way too much free time...

Mike

Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260675
06/25/13 06:52 PM
06/25/13 06:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Someone keeps lobbing softballs... ;-)


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Rules Question; shorten course [Re: Jake] #260682
06/26/13 07:30 AM
06/26/13 07:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
And you're powerless to resist the compulsion... wait, I resemble that remark... mad

Mike

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 21 guests, and 76 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
toomanyhulls, madina9900, johngava, badcatsailor, wehnet
8119 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,395
Posts267,036
Members8,119
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1