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One Design Racing goes Handicap!! #260905
07/03/13 12:35 PM
07/03/13 12:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Just because I enjoy giving Dave major indigestion and to highlight a real change in customs.....

The Aussi A class nationals are now running handicap.
http://www.manta.org.au/a-cat

I am a huge believer that OD races should take times anyway... it gives a race team an absolute benchmark for where the top is.... if you consistently finish a minute behind the leaders in a 30 minute race... that shows you where you are.

RE: A class going handicap in Aussi land... Well it is all about the numbers on the water.... Scoring three flavors of A class, Intl, Standard, Classic on handicap makes sense to me... Sorting the fleet into three small divisions... makes NO sense to me.

Major props to the Aussies for looking towards the future.
Huge props to the RC who HATE taking times for what they see as a One design class.... It is much much easier to write down the last 4 numbers of a sail then that PLUS a time.

Not to forget the scorekeeper who has double the work now.

Props to all...


crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260910
07/03/13 01:38 PM
07/03/13 01:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
I'll have to admit Mark as soon as I read the link I said "oh fu@k off Mark", then after I read the opening sentence it did make me chuckle.

Anyway ONLY YOU could spin this as a positive. This is simply a sign that the A-cat class in OZ is circling the drain.

This next part is snarky so those that are easily offended you should go back to watching your stories.

Here's my Alter Cup idea... because I'm such a super fan of handicap racing:

Instead of everyone having to sail the same body of water at the same time those that wish to participate can set up a simple windward leeward course close to home, record how long it takes go around the course, record the wind strength and the length of the course and submit the data to the supreme council for calculation. Don't worry about it being precise handicap doesn't work that way anyway. As for the necessary formulas to account for the varying distances and wind strength, not to worry we will make something up and it will be totally fair... totally!

This format will guarantee HUGE numbers and crown a true champion you know because the current format is so exclusionary and it's a hassle to travel. Oh and USSailing membership is required, the man's gotta get paid. I'm a freaking genius I alone will save the Alter Cup!

This concludes installment two of who is the biggest nutter.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260911
07/03/13 01:52 PM
07/03/13 01:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 337
Arizona
AzCat Offline
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AzCat  Offline
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Posts: 337
Arizona
This is true genius!! I just set up a course in my pool, Finally, Mast up storage!!


Auscat MKV 444 A class
NACRA I-20- 440/CATHATKA
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260912
07/03/13 01:54 PM
07/03/13 01:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Ding, that's an Awesome idea! I'll set up a 1 mile W-L course out on my lake later today and time myself!

But I'm warning you, I'm pretty fast when nobody's around to see it! Why don't you just send me the trophy and save me the trouble of getting wet!

;^)


Blade F16
#777
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260913
07/03/13 01:59 PM
07/03/13 01:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline
veteran

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
Please submit all times to me as I will make all final calculations and award the trophy.
I am also head of the jury and protest committee. All protests and jury inquiries are to be sent in in writing with a bottle of GOOD Rum and $100 in cash. The $100 will be returned after the protest is heard if warranted less handling charge.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: David Ingram] #260914
07/03/13 02:02 PM
07/03/13 02:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Oh, I think this is a very positve move and hope it gets support world wide.

I think the those aussie A class sailors probably fill out 7 of the top ten spots at a worlds and generate a huge portion of the fleet that arrives in a container.

The development nature of the A class, @ of Money to play the game, the huge skill level differences, the huge travel distances to manage, and the level of interest in the class at competing at the state of the art level, regional and club level are huge variables. ...

I think the Aussie A class has it right... I hope the trend continues. There are a lot of A class sailors who get flushed from the class for all sorts of reasons... I believe that big fleets where they would find themselves racing again might actually grow the class particpation numbers.

I fully expect that I have a minority view in the states.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: F-18 5150] #260915
07/03/13 02:06 PM
07/03/13 02:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hey... I was a fan of the handicap open championship... I voted that way.... I lost ... not even close ...

So, back to One design... thankfully the bay area Hobie 16 sailors stepped up for Laura...

You F18 guys are on deck for next year... support it in some way or it will go away.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260917
07/03/13 02:29 PM
07/03/13 02:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Maybe there will be a lot of Aus sailors on the top 10 spots but if they can't turn around participation in the class the top talent in the OZ A-class will defect to another platform that offers talent worthy of their parcticipation. These guys are NOT looking to be a big fish in a small pond. Most couldn't give a crap about the platform they are looking at who they are competing aginst and will seak out the talent. When a fleet loses it's top talent it's no longer a matter of if but when. We've all seen it and we've all denied it will happen to our beloved fleet. The pattern is clear and it's undeniable, and this handicap thing is just a desperate act to keep it going.

When you have to say the words... it has to be a handicap event or we can't have the event, the smell of death is in the air.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260919
07/03/13 02:48 PM
07/03/13 02:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
O
orphan Offline
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Daytona Beach Florida
Please read the notice of race. It states "it is intended to have a handicap division". Not sure how this translates to a handicap regatta.

Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260920
07/03/13 03:05 PM
07/03/13 03:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

You F18 guys are on deck for next year... support it in some way or it will go away.



Just to make one thing clear before I get started, my comments below in NO WAY represent the opinions of the the F18 fleet they are mine and mine alone.

The current format is a non starter! It's simply being done to be done, it's the old ultimatum, we do it this way or we don't do it. In my opinion then DON'T DO IT! The Alter Cup is/was as much about the format as it was about the championship a sentiment I believe not not shared by the current leadership! There is no reason why the Alter Cup couldn't be done every 4 years or whatever it takes for the HJ fund to build up enough $$ to support the provided boat format! Instead of dumping the qualifiers keep having them, yes a one start one course everybody races against the clock format (oh I feel so unclean). Persuade the participating hosts to kick in a few $$ to the HJ fund to help move things towards the goal, then when the magic number is hit pull the trigger make the announcement and have a proper championship! Yes, I know USSailing won't get their $50 a head every year from the Alter Cup but it's not like they are going to miss the $$ from a sub ten boat championship anyway.

Oh and the sponsorship $$ that would have been spent on the championship, that gets put into the quailifiers, yeah USSailing doesn't get to pocket that! Yep! Still bitter!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: orphan] #260924
07/03/13 03:22 PM
07/03/13 03:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Orphan... I just took the regatta title A class Nationals being run as A class handicap event as what it is... a handicap event.

Once again... I don't think it is a sign of class death as Dave argues... I think it is a smart move for the reality of 2013. YMMV



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260928
07/03/13 04:34 PM
07/03/13 04:34 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



Don't get your pants in to much of a wad girls, the "handicap" results are done as a way to encouruage young and/or less well off sailors to still come and play. The event is still scored primarily on scratch. At their nationals the kiwis give out praises for A,B and C grade boats to do the same thing and for years the Aussies have been giving a prize to the first pre-flyer boat. The fact is you can buy a beautiful mkiv Buyer for about $4k but you're unlikely to beat s well sailed DNA or Nakita regardless of how you sail it. This result let's every boat have a shot of at least taking some sort of trophy home. But to be the National champion you have to best the rest boat for boat on the water.

Last edited by Scarecrow; 07/03/13 10:16 PM.
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: ] #260931
07/03/13 06:46 PM
07/03/13 06:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
he "handicap" results are done as a way to encouragej young and/or less well off sailors to still come and play.


Exactly...! they are racing the entire fleet.... The one guy with a classic is racing everyone with his handicap.. He is not there to collect his trophy for racing a classic A cat. I suspect he does not give a damn about that.. He is there to compete and the handicap leveled the playing field enough for him to spend his time and money.
Quote
The event is still scored primarily on scratch.

The degree to which the top guys poo pooh his result will just undermine the idea of growing the fleet.

Quote
At their nationals the kiwis give out praises for A,B and C grade boats to do the same thing and for years the Pussies have been giving a prize to the first pre-flyer boat.


Now that is useless!. ... If you think anybody is going to travel and spend money on making their boat race ready PLUS the expense of going to a regatta so that they can collect a B grade trophy, well... the Pussies are dreaming. (who are the Pussies?)

Just giving out trophies does not mean that you were involved in an actual race worth your time and money... The classic guy is the only boat IN the Pussies race. Why Would He Bother? just another chotchkey to fill the house up with??

Adults are there for the fun factor of competition... the trophies are not why they compete. No competition... no competitors.. Deciding you are giving trophies for all these divisons is just like how they try to manage kids in the Opti class..

they RACE one through 50. The Opti class organization does not want you to split them out by division. there are no division ribbons on the boats. ... they want Opti racing to be about competing for place in the 50 boat fleet. At the end of the regatta... they want you top publish fleet splits BUT your points remain the same... (they just resort the score sheet)

The Kids and their parents disagree... they are absolutely focused on the Red White and Blue age group score, The mid fleet prize, the youngest in age group prize, top girl prize .... All hell breaks lose when you don't score them properly... Don't ask me how I know!




















crac.sailregattas.com
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260933
07/03/13 10:17 PM
07/03/13 10:17 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
(who are the Pussies?)


That should have read "Aussies", bloody phone.

90% of the people I know, go to these regattas to catch up with old friends and sail in bigger fleets than they do each weekend, so a trophy on the last night for doing well given your budget is actually a bonus.

Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Mark Schneider] #260942
07/04/13 09:31 AM
07/04/13 09:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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brucat  Offline
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Posts: 3,969
I like trophies. Hopefully that means I haven't grown up yet.

I thought Pussies was maybe an inside Aussie joke having to do with Pusser's rum. Guess that proves my point?

Mike

Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: ] #260945
07/04/13 11:43 AM
07/04/13 11:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Scarecrow
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
(who are the Pussies?)


That should have read "Aussies", bloody phone.

90% of the people I know, go to these regattas to catch up with old friends and sail in bigger fleets than they do each weekend, so a trophy on the last night for doing well given your budget is actually a bonus.


A Kiwi might say that was a Freudian slip.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: One Design Racing goes Handicap!! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #261016
07/08/13 09:30 AM
07/08/13 09:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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racing (or acting like I was racing) gave me a legitimate reason for my alcoholism (and busted bank account).

Now i have no excuses... f*ckers


Jay


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