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Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: John Williams] #261432
07/16/13 07:30 PM
07/16/13 07:30 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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JW, Correct my error if you will. After hours of teleconferencing that was my perception. I did not mean to poke any worms - only to explain why/how the term, Alter Cup originated and offer some reasonable explanation for the change of format for MK.

I am growing too old to keep up with you young folk, but you were correct. You know where my heart is.


-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261433
07/16/13 07:41 PM
07/16/13 07:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Hi Mike -

Of course nobody at US SAILING (don't they still require the volunteers to write it in all caps?) knows - it was the Multihull Council that started the event with no support. After a time, we got a great Championships Manager in Lindy Christopherson for a long time - she supported all 10 qualifiers and the finals, and gave the volunteers anything they needed with a smile and a wink. She got canned, though.

I've asked the one guy that knows the whole story to make an appearance here - hope he does. In the meantime, to whet the appetite and set the stage, all of the original documentation referred to "U.S. Yacht Racing Union's Alter Cup." Even the post-conception typed "deed" isn't the original.

I have a terrific reverence for this trophy and the man that created it. In his humbleness, he named it for someone he admired, and the Council enthusiastically followed suit.

[Linked Image]


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: John Williams] #261438
07/16/13 09:11 PM
07/16/13 09:11 PM
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Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
Hi Mike -

Of course nobody at US SAILING (don't they still require the volunteers to write it in all caps?) knows - it was the Multihull Council that started the event with no support. After a time, we got a great Championships Manager in Lindy Christopherson for a long time - she supported all 10 qualifiers and the finals, and gave the volunteers anything they needed with a smile and a wink. She got canned, though.

I've asked the one guy that knows the whole story to make an appearance here - hope he does. In the meantime, to whet the appetite and set the stage, all of the original documentation referred to "U.S. Yacht Racing Union's Alter Cup." Even the post-conception typed "deed" isn't the original.

I have a terrific reverence for this trophy and the man that created it. In his humbleness, he named it for someone he admired, and the Council enthusiastically followed suit.

[Linked Image]


GORDON Rocks....period.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261439
07/16/13 09:19 PM
07/16/13 09:19 PM
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Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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He pretty much rocks all punctuation.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261443
07/17/13 06:49 AM
07/17/13 06:49 AM
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brucat Offline
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Who has the napkin upon which this is written?

Mikw

Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: John Williams] #261447
07/17/13 08:26 AM
07/17/13 08:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
He pretty much rocks all punctuation.


Especially exclamation points!!!!


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261476
07/18/13 01:09 AM
07/18/13 01:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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I talked with Gordon today - I'm hoping he makes it for the A Cat event here next month; I lured him with sipping rum and free lodging. I don't think he's going to post in this thread, but his knowledge is invaluable; the world will go on spinning without it, but just as with Darline, Gordie has memories that are worth preserving. I will always regret not mining Darline's memory before she was gone; I won't make the same mistake again.

Gordon Isco was leading the Council at a time when the USYRU didn't think much of multihulls. "They can't tack" and "They flip over" and "They're dangerous" and "They aren't REAL boats" were common quotes in the hallways at meetings... Hell, that was the pervasive attitude. Yet the Multihull Council was able to forge a Championship for us. Gordie said his biggest beef since 1985 has been that he always hears cat sailors talk about "them" when referring to US SAILING. "Them" can be "us" and we are "They" in Gordie's mind.

The USYRU Board started calling it the Alter Cup in about 1989 after the event started gaining traction. The Council always called it the Multihull Championship. Gordon, who does some pretty amazing metal sculptures, built the trophy himself - you'll note the boats on the trophy share design characteristics from several classes racing at the time, but aren't identifiable as a particular boat on purpose.

So, it was US SAILING (as USYRU) that coined the "Cup" terminology - it was marketing. Or maybe just a mistake that got perpetuated for it's similarity to the Americas Cup (Gordon's speculation). Regardless, the volunteers that built the event always struggled to balance the competing ideologies among cat sailors in US SAILING - the event was to be a Championship of class Champions, or it was to be a US SAILING tool to build membership by attracting sailors to a qualification ladder and an invitation to the finals. Gordon was responsible for the partnership with Bill Jolley and the Hoyt-Jolley Foundation that funded the event so successfully for over a decade. I hope Bill knows what his donation created and how many sailors he supported...

Youth sailors at Alter Cup

[Linked Image]

Women sailors at Alter Cup

[Linked Image]


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: John Williams] #261478
07/18/13 06:09 AM
07/18/13 06:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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John,

Is that you in the Ronstan top?


USA 777
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261480
07/18/13 08:04 AM
07/18/13 08:04 AM
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brucat Offline
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The "us" and "them" thing has bothered me for a long, long time. I too value making the event relevant to all cat sailors.

Hopefully, this has been recognizable through my words and actions over the past two years...

Mike

Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #261482
07/18/13 08:35 AM
07/18/13 08:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


GORDON Rocks....period.


I remember when both JC and Gordon had hair. does that make me old?


Jay

Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: tback] #261485
07/18/13 09:19 AM
07/18/13 09:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by tback
John,

Is that you in the Ronstan top?


Too tall.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #261490
07/18/13 12:20 PM
07/18/13 12:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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The puzzle is NOT why is it referred to as the XXX Cup... rather, why is called the Alter XXX.

I started paying attention to the national organizations of sailing about 1987.. The organizing body was USYRU and my local organization was CBYRA. The first thing you notice was the commitment to sailing traditions. Yacht Clubs and by extension USYRU were the keepers of the Championships .. Their trophies were displayed in huge trophy cases in the clubs. The YC were charged with maintaining the history and tradition of Corinthian Sailing. (The blue blazer tradition that we cat sailors were/are predisposed to ridicule). Yachting traditions had all of the major awards titled as "Cups" symbolized by the their unique trophies. ... eg the "Sears Cup". Everyone new instantly what the Sears Cup was about... just as today we know what the America's cup is about.

So, the culture and tradition of Corinthian sailing would make the multihull trophy... a Cup. The real question is... Why Hobie Alter.... the Cup part is in keeping with the history of Corinthian Sailing in the US. John and Gordon hinted at the origins of the trophy as being non sectarian... (can't tell what class is on that trophy)
Why?

So, in 1987.... I joined Prindle Fleet 25 with a DART 18...and so I joined the anti establishment.... a paper catamaran club! ....When we changed the name... it was to CRAC... Catamaran Racing Association of the Chesapeake... We wanted NOTHING to do with Yacht Clubs.... Now... CRAC is suspended and the cat sailors are members of West River Sailing Association... an old Yacht Club on the Chesapeake. Annapolis Yacht Club hosted the 2012 Hobie 16 Junior North American Championships last year.... AYC is the definition of establishment in these parts AND we can go back with any championship event we would want to run here!

We have to remember that catamarans (Tornado's and Sharks) were sailing and racing at Yacht clubs well before the Hobie BEACH Revolution. The A class was also a popular class and Yacht clubs like Lake Hopatcong with 50 years of prior history had taken on the A class with a club member building A cats in his basement... and they now celebrate their role in supporting the A class (even tho the A class members feel a bit like second class citizens because the other OD fleets are OLDER.)

The history changing moment was the decision made by Hobie Alter who strategically decided to stay well clear of the Yacht Club scene. You can read the history that was generated when Hobie celebrated their 40th anniversary a few years ago. The deliberate decision to go their own way created the huge divisions and mindsets we see today. The reaction on both sides of the split (Yacht club mono hull racers who did not know of Tornado's Sharks and A Class said.. ... they can't tack.... and Hobie BEACH cat sailors.... who said... stuffy blue blazers) was extreme.

When I started this was just the way it was and from the stories told... tempers had started to cool ... a bit. We also have to remember that IYRU multihull classes and their sailors on ... A class C Class and B class were really part of the Yacht Club scene and they also had NO connection to the beach catters. These guys were not a natural fit with the Hobie World either. The B Class resolved to the Tornado and it's selection as the Olympic boat was part of the Yacht Club scene. The air of superiority between Hobie 16 sailors and Tornado sailors was a hoot to watch. This was a Mars and Venus universe! The non beach cat classes were in rapid decline in numbers and the Beach cat "Hobie" world was exploding.

In 1987... I could identify only four Yacht clubs that supported Catamarans.. Lake Hopatcong YC with A cats and Wroten Point YC in Connecticut and Sharks at Canidegua YC in NY, Tornado's at Miami YC down the road from what became known as Hobie Beach on Rickenbacker Causeway... while there were beach cat paper clubs sailing hobies, prindles, nacras, darts, isotopes all over the place. The YC world of multihulls was in decline and most YCs were very isolated from the Beach Cat world of Hobies (all catamarans in the world are called Hobies by Yacht club members.... now that is some marketing!).

This was the environment that Gordon, Darline and folks I have never met were looking at as part of the establishment (USYRU). IMO, they knew that the split between YCs/USYRU and the Beach Cat world was not a winning move.

IMO, when the establishment leaders looked out at the world and thought of whom to honor with the CUP... they probably had to consider Nate Herschorn (already honored by numerous trophies) and Hobie Alter (the innovator who created the notion of a BEACH Cat). (I doubt Gordon will take credit ... I believe John's account) They probably hoped that the Alter Cup would start the process of putting the community together... (YC's, YC catamaran Sailors, Beach Cat Sailors and Hobie Beach Cat sailors). IMO... naming the trophy the Hobie Alter Cup was a brilliant and wise move. The marketing idiots that have followed have tried to rebrand all of these traditions including the Sears Cup from time to time... so Situation Normal.

John also noted how US Sailing... USYRU's re-branded organization has attempted to view the Alter Cup... (recruit multihull sailors to join US Sailing.... the premiere US multihull championship... just one of the championships that US sailing must offer....etc. It depended on who was in charge of US Sailing and which program director was running the show and which marketing idiot was in charge for that era. This is matched by equally strong opinions on what the Alter cup should NOT have become. Rick White was (and probably still believes) that it should not have become a championship of champions.... While Dave Ingram is PO'd that it is just another BYOB championship. Times change.

So, as all of the folks who have served on the championship committee will tell you... This is NOT an easy peasy thing to pull off. The establishment is STILL the establishment. US Sailing staff and leaders orient their POV to Yacht Clubs and their organization. Beach Cat sailors orient to their paper clubs and class or brand. It is a culture mis match that is HUGE. You need a LOT OF GREASE (aka good will) to make this work... sometimes volunteers get slimed and the salt in the wounds stings. (Hey I am no longer on the committee either)

I served one year on the committee and I am pleased with the current direction. BYOB because of the economics and branding constraints. Rotating each year between Double handed Sloop, Double handed Spinnaker, and Single handed Disciplines. The future of the Multihull Championship will depend on the major One Design Classes and their elected leadership supporting the competition for the Alter Cup by working with US Sailing, a host YC who wants to be part of the system, the class OD sailors who want to compete for the championship.

Props to Sausilito YC for wanting to host and also work with the AC organization. Props to Hobie Factory and Hobie Class leadership who brought the Hobie 16's to the party ... Props to Liz Walker who is the US Sailing part of the three legged stool. Props to Laura Sullivan who closed the deal with the Hobie 16 class when she took over. THANKS to the sailors who are going to support the championship this year. ... six more boats to register and it will be the largest fleet and match the turnout of all previous Alter Cups. The international participation by PR sailors is fitting as well. It is fitting that the Alter Cup be held on the epitome of a beach cat... the Hobie 16 while the YC world is building and racing the epitome of a catamaran... the AC72.

Leaving only one question... Who is up for next year? Single handers would keep the rotation going a pace. An A Class US Multihull championship would celebrate one of the classic Yacht club catamaran classes as well.

As always... YMMV!




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261491
07/18/13 01:40 PM
07/18/13 01:40 PM
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brucat Offline
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Good write-up, but you forgot to thank Bert for getting us an event in last year's transition, Liz for helping me set up the survey, and all of the sailors, here and elsewhere, upon whose input the changes were made. The current Council/Committee has been quiet of late, but put in a lot of work last year to make recommendations to pull this off and keep it going.

Mike

Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: Mark Schneider] #261493
07/18/13 03:51 PM
07/18/13 03:51 PM
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catandahalf Offline
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In April, I listened in while Bob Hodges and Randy Smyth were considering bundling the USMC with their Nationals/NAs.

This will not be a "Stand Alone" event which is paramount in the tradition of the US Sailing Multihull Championship as Gordo intended it to be.

The regatta should be separate from other events, and that is why we maintained course with the F 16s last year. Small as it was, the regatta sustained the original purpose, and I am most glad that Sausalito Yacht Club has continued the tradition.

The one crystal clear fact which has arisen from this dialogue is that our history as catamaran or trimaran sailors must be preserved and not compromised by one person's viewpoint.

John, ask Gordon what he knows about Dick Blanchard and his wife Betty, who organized the North American Multihull Sailing Association. Rick White has been the steward of the effort since Dick passed away. I do remember the days when Gene Vernon, Geoff Prindle, Tom Roland, and Pete Melvin struggled to find starting lines for their designs.

There are real heroes that have built the pyramid, that should not disappear in the mist of time. How many of you know Ian Farrier?

Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: John Williams] #261497
07/18/13 08:19 PM
07/18/13 08:19 PM
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GISCO Offline
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The boats on the trophy are Hobie 18s. That's what I was sailing at the time. I have already posted a few times why I started the event and the intent, so I won't go into that again.

The thing that upset me the most is my Fast and Fun program for the kids died out in California and never moved around the country like I envisioned

Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261499
07/18/13 11:08 PM
07/18/13 11:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Originally Posted by GISCO
t,s really sad to see the lack of interest in the multihull championship ( Alter Cup). The main reason for the formation of this event was to show, the multihull sailors and at that time USYRU that we were part of the total sailing community. We use the same rules and race the same as monohulls, but just use another type of craft. So, to not appear that we were different the event was patterned after the existing national ladder championships. 10 boats and 10 area teams with no petitions.

I truly appreciate the sailors, volunteers and suppliers that have kept this event going for 20+ years. I just hope the current apathy doesn't portend it's demise.

It has always been an uphill battle to get multihulls integrated with USSA. Thank goodness for for John's involvment, but it takes more than one.


Originally Posted by GISCO
Back in the dark ages when the multihull council was first formed at USYRU I started the multihull championshp with a two fold purpose in mind. First it was to give the sailors a connection to the governing body of sailing in the US (USYRU). The other was to show USYRU that multihulls were no different than the rest of the sailing community by patterning the event after the existing championships (10 teams/10 boats). The 10 teams from the ten areas gave sailors from regions where multihulls were not prevelent a chance to compete at the national level. It was not meant to the best sailor in the country, but the best sailor of the ten regions.

Since that time the event has gone far afield from the original concept with the expansion to 20 teams invitations and petitions. It's time to take a good hard look to see how to make it an event to strive for again. If not it's had a good long run.



Originally Posted by GISCO
We originaly wanted to have the qualifiers in a one design boat per the other championships. After researching the boats in the areas, it seemed that there were very few that could come up with enough boats to hold an event on a one design platform. The idea was to have an event that all multihull sailors could identify with USYRU, as we were just getting started with the governing body for sailing in the USA . You have to realize that this was concieved 20+ years ago.

GI


Originally Posted by GISCO
Matt,
The Alter Cup was originally set up as a ladder event 10 areas 10 boats. It remained that way for a number of years until some of the council members thought that there were top multihull sailors that didn't have time to compete in the ladder events and they should be invited. That's when it expanded to 20 teams. I believe I was the only vote against the change.

G.i.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261511
07/19/13 09:58 AM
07/19/13 09:58 AM
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brucat Offline
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So, it's all about values...

If you value Gordon's original concept, return to the Qualifier-only process and limit the event to 10 boats. They do not have to be new boats if you can find a host with boats available. Few, if any, current Championships are being run this way now.

If you value the new boats and extended invitation (20-team) concept, know that no other Championship is run that way, and have a real plan to fund the event without asking the Board for money.

If you value making the event relevant in modern times, the current model is trying to do that. Minimizing costs, opening the invitations, eliminating qualifiers (which were neither being run correctly nor well-attended), rotating disciplines and locations, and adding clinics are all outcomes of sailor input, and committee meetings. US Sailing (current leadership) has provided some feedback, but are not driving this. Most Championships have moved in a similar direction.

There are pros and cons to each of these approaches. Personally, I favor letting it continue to evolve (moving away from Gordon's original concept, against his wishes, was done before), and supporting the event no matter how it is formatted; otherwise, we run the risk of losing the ability to have it, and all of the work and tradition and people that have been revered will fade into distant memory.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 07/19/13 10:05 AM.
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: brucat] #261514
07/19/13 02:36 PM
07/19/13 02:36 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
fund the event without asking the Board for money.

Mike


So why is US Sailing involved again?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Alter Cup and Americas Cup on Same Course [Re: RickWhite] #261515
07/19/13 04:39 PM
07/19/13 04:39 PM
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brucat Offline
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It's pretty clearly laid out on Gordon's posts above...

There are funds available and used to run the event every year without Board approval.

But, you already know all of that...

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 07/19/13 04:41 PM.
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