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Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261649
07/24/13 08:13 AM
07/24/13 08:13 AM
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SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline
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Anyone else having issues with today's tracker? Getting a some kind of Java certificate exception error.

edit
-- Now its working... Strange. Tried 3-4 times. Finally rebooted the computer and whaddayaknow. It works...

Last edited by rehmbo; 07/24/13 08:15 AM.

Jeff R

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Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: brucat] #261658
07/24/13 10:58 AM
07/24/13 10:58 AM
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In Blue Fleet Q2, Taylor and Catherine were the 4th boat across the finish line but they hit the mark. They did their one turn spin and crossed again from the course side 1 or 2 boats later. The jury protested them asserting they had not "promptly" completed their turn and after a protest hearing disqualified them. In reviewing the elapsed time per the recorded tracker of the race finish, it appears that within 11 seconds of hitting the mark, T and Catherine had cleared the zone and other boats and had begun their turn which they completed on the course side of the finish line 19 seconds later and then they correctly finished 29 seconds after that. All told, it took them 59 seconds after incident of hitting the mark to complete a spin and finish from the correct course side. Given 5-6 knot wind conditions and a strong current, I am not sure how they could have been any more prompt, but nonetheless they were disqualified. Obviously very frustrating and disappointing for them. They were on the beach that day from 8 am to 11 pm and they were completely worn out by the time it was over. The recorded elapsed time showing this was not part of the evidence at the protest hearing.

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Reiss] #261659
07/24/13 11:15 AM
07/24/13 11:15 AM
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Portland, Maine
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Originally Posted by Reiss
In Blue Fleet Q2, Taylor and Catherine were the 4th boat across the finish line but they hit the mark. They did their one turn spin and crossed again from the course side 1 or 2 boats later. The jury protested them asserting they had not "promptly" completed their turn and after a protest hearing disqualified them. In reviewing the elapsed time per the recorded tracker of the race finish, it appears that within 11 seconds of hitting the mark, T and Catherine had cleared the zone and other boats and had begun their turn which they completed on the course side of the finish line 19 seconds later and then they correctly finished 29 seconds after that. All told, it took them 59 seconds after incident of hitting the mark to complete a spin and finish from the correct course side. Given 5-6 knot wind conditions and a strong current, I am not sure how they could have been any more prompt, but nonetheless they were disqualified. Obviously very frustrating and disappointing for them. They were on the beach that day from 8 am to 11 pm and they were completely worn out by the time it was over. The recorded elapsed time showing this was not part of the evidence at the protest hearing.


Seems like more targeting of USA-based teams. I've heard stories that this happens at international events and it seems that its in full swing here.

Sad and pathetic really.

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: ThunderMuffin] #261660
07/24/13 11:16 AM
07/24/13 11:16 AM
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Naples, FL
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next time throw the spinnaker in the water? it works for the AC smile


Jay

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261664
07/24/13 12:20 PM
07/24/13 12:20 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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They can re-open the protest given new information to present to the jury (tracker data). If the DSQ still holds then you appeal. Unfortunately that could get expensive if the appeals jury is in Europe. Utter ridiculous that 59 seconds is too long to complete the required penalty.

Last edited by samc99us; 07/24/13 12:22 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: ThunderMuffin] #261665
07/24/13 12:25 PM
07/24/13 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Originally Posted by Reiss
In Blue Fleet Q2, Taylor and Catherine were the 4th boat across the finish line but they hit the mark. They did their one turn spin and crossed again from the course side 1 or 2 boats later. The jury protested them asserting they had not "promptly" completed their turn and after a protest hearing disqualified them. In reviewing the elapsed time per the recorded tracker of the race finish, it appears that within 11 seconds of hitting the mark, T and Catherine had cleared the zone and other boats and had begun their turn which they completed on the course side of the finish line 19 seconds later and then they correctly finished 29 seconds after that. All told, it took them 59 seconds after incident of hitting the mark to complete a spin and finish from the correct course side. Given 5-6 knot wind conditions and a strong current, I am not sure how they could have been any more prompt, but nonetheless they were disqualified. Obviously very frustrating and disappointing for them. They were on the beach that day from 8 am to 11 pm and they were completely worn out by the time it was over. The recorded elapsed time showing this was not part of the evidence at the protest hearing.


Seems like more targeting of USA-based teams. I've heard stories that this happens at international events and it seems that its in full swing here.

Sad and pathetic really.


That really is sad if it happens at other international events. Is their something different between U.S Sailing RRS and ISAF rules I should be aware of?

International events on U.S shores certainly have their fare share of bias too. All pathetic.


Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261666
07/24/13 12:31 PM
07/24/13 12:31 PM
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Boston, Ma
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The RRS are published by ISAF and the same everywhere in the world. The only difference is the inclusion of national prescriptions.

I highly doubt they were targeting a US team, why would they? My guess is the jury felt Taylor took too long to start his penalty. Hopefully Taylor can appeal with the GPS tracker data as evidence, but it is not guaranteed the jury will allow the GPS data as evidence.


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Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261668
07/24/13 12:43 PM
07/24/13 12:43 PM
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Provisional results after 5 races:
http://www.nacra17class.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/FR_01___1.pdf

Good to see all three Dutch teams in the top 10. smile

Has Taylor not been DSQ'ed he would move up to place 32 from current 44.

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Reiss] #261671
07/24/13 12:53 PM
07/24/13 12:53 PM
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Jake Offline
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The rule states "after getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible...". Surely, within the stated time period, it's reasonable to accept 11 seconds for a 4th place boat to find a spot to "get well clear of other boats". That ruling seems a little harsh.

I wouldn't jump straight to talk of "targeting American teams" from one reported incident..geesh.


Jake Kohl
Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261672
07/24/13 01:03 PM
07/24/13 01:03 PM
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Boston, Ma
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No US boats in gold fleet. Spots on US Sailing team still to play for.



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Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261674
07/24/13 01:12 PM
07/24/13 01:12 PM
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so if no us boats got into gold fleet that means the Mike and Robbie did not get onto US team?

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261675
07/24/13 01:19 PM
07/24/13 01:19 PM
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I could be wrong, but my understanding is:

1. Top 25 boats make the gold fleet. Split is made after Wednesday racing, as long as three races completed by each fleet.

2. Top two US boats make the US Sailing team- I don't think there is an additional requirement to make the gold fleet, but I'm not certain.


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Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261676
07/24/13 02:32 PM
07/24/13 02:32 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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Hmmm, the question is why are no U.S boats in the top 25?? We have 3 years to the Olympics and based on today's results we have a lot of work to do as a team. I know 1 regatta doesn't speak every truth but my armchair interpretation of the results is we need more large, competitive fleet practice on the 17.


Scorpion F18
Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261687
07/24/13 04:22 PM
07/24/13 04:22 PM
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You are undoubtedly not alone in making that observation. Let's hope something comes of it.

As for the jury decision, it's possible that it cannot be appealed. Presumably, an IJ was in place?

Mike

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: brucat] #261698
07/24/13 06:40 PM
07/24/13 06:40 PM
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Is there any chance Taylor could request redress and have the time factor re - considered? That would be good experience for a youth sailor, and with RD's coaching might shave some points off his final score. Given the tide/current evidence, maybe Taylor could swing a reversal of the jury's decision. I would hate to see him just accept the decision without a second effort.

My understanding is that the top two USA teams are measured by US Sailing and not by the ISAF, but I stand to be corrected. Sometimes regattas of this magnitude require aggression on the water and in the 'room' as well.

Let's hope tomorrow is a better day since Taylor and Catherine finished today's racing with a fourteenth. Ya gotta love the kid's dedication.

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261699
07/24/13 08:16 PM
07/24/13 08:16 PM
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I don't see how they can "appeal."

RRS 66 could allow the hearing to be reopened, as follows: "The protest committee may reopen a hearing when it decides that it may have made a significant error, or when significant new evidence becomes available within a reasonable time."

Technically, that's not an appeal.

Furthermore, per RRS 70.5: "There shall be no appeal from the decisions of an international jury constituted in compliance with Appendix N."

So, if the IJ is properly constituted, there can be no "appeal."

Worse than that, if the decision was made by an umpire boat, there is pretty much no hope for a boat-driven request to reopen or appeal (section Q of the SIs). I have no clue why it would be desirable for this to be so draconian.

SIs are here: http://www.nacra17class.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/SI-Nacra-17-Worlds_final.pdf

NOR is here: http://www.nacra17class.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/NoR-Nacra-17-World-Championship-2013.pdf

Section 12 states: "An International Jury will be appointed in accordance with RRS 91(b). Its decisions will be final as provided in RRS 70.5."

RRS 62.1 (a) says a boat may request redress, or a PC may consider redress, for "an improper action or omission of the race committee, protest committee, organizing authority, equipment inspection committee or measurement committee for the event, but not by a protest committee decision when the boat was a party to the hearing."

While all hope may not be lost, I'd say it's looking pretty bleak to change this decision...

Mike

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261701
07/24/13 09:01 PM
07/24/13 09:01 PM
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Boston, Ma
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I meant reopen, my bad.

Looking back at the tracker, I can see where the jury felt the one turn penalty was not completed correctly. Tough situation, hope they make the most of the rest of the week- lots of time until the games!

Last edited by Jeff.Dusek; 07/24/13 09:05 PM.

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Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261705
07/25/13 06:39 AM
07/25/13 06:39 AM
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This would be a country qualifying event I believe.

What this would mean is that as of now it does not matter who is on the US team as there is not US slot at the Olympics yet.

I foresee a lot more international travel or we will be sitting out another quad

Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261710
07/25/13 07:24 AM
07/25/13 07:24 AM
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I don't believe this worlds is a country qualifying event. Those usually don't happen until a year and a half to a year before the games.

Spots on the US Sailing Team are valuable because they come with increased funding, coaching, shipping assistance, physical training, etc.

Had a chance to talk with Mike briefly this morning, it has been a tough week so far for the US team, but they are all focused on improving and gaining the most out of the regatta. All the teams suffer from lack of time in the boat, especially in racing situations, but that will certainly improve. Sounds like a couple minor injuries among the US contingent, muscle pulls and such that show how physically demanding the boat is to race.

Mike also mentioned he misses the post race 'Gansett!


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Re: Nacra 17 World Championships [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #261720
07/25/13 11:55 AM
07/25/13 11:55 AM
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Not sure if I missed it somewhere......Does anyone know what mast is being used?


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