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Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: brucat] #263626
09/11/13 04:07 PM
09/11/13 04:07 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by tshan
Originally Posted by brucat
If everything is loose (as it should be), hanging onto the dolphin striker crossbar near the windward hull should cause the boat to pivot into the wind right away.


I was always taught to go hang on the dolphin striker on the windward hull to keep the boat from continuing to roll over. It does make sense that it also creates a pivot point. I really cannot think of a time where the boat tried to sail off without us onboard - it has probably happened but I don't recall it.


It's all sort of automatic to me now (having done it way too many times), so it may not be coming across correctly.

The idea is, once the boat starts coming up, get to the old bottom hull (when capsized), which will be the new windward hull (when righted), pulling down on the dolphin striker cross-piece.

That should kill two birds: puts you in the right place to keep it from rolling all the way over, and for you to be the pivot point to make it turn into the wind.

Mike


That's not a sure bet on an F18. I've been there and had the boat turn downwind even with me hanging to windward on the dolphin striker bar. Even with me hanging onto the windward rudder I couldn't get it to turn. Only after I finally let go did it sail another 150 yards, gybe and capsize on its own.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263640
09/11/13 09:29 PM
09/11/13 09:29 PM
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Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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Here's the best way to get back on
http://youtu.be/0ypF5c-NUuE


Jeff Southall
Current boats
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Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263647
09/12/13 03:00 AM
09/12/13 03:00 AM
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Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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On this forum we have discussed many times the uprighting after a capsize. That's were the focus is. The damn thing has to be upright again.

But we all know how to do this; each one has his own method and infact for the old hands it's a piece of cake.

The big problem is what happens after the uprizing. There's sometimes very little time because of unwanted headway or incoming waves.
You should have a defined plan/procedure for your handling in this phase.
A lot of us don't have this.

For me as a single-handed sailor it means taking some measures while the cat is still on its side. For making it more easy for me to climb fast on board.

Depending on your hull shape, your free board when your weight is off, always is higher then you think.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/12/13 03:09 AM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: Jake] #263650
09/12/13 05:15 AM
09/12/13 05:15 AM
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Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by tshan
Originally Posted by brucat
If everything is loose (as it should be), hanging onto the dolphin striker crossbar near the windward hull should cause the boat to pivot into the wind right away.


I was always taught to go hang on the dolphin striker on the windward hull to keep the boat from continuing to roll over. It does make sense that it also creates a pivot point. I really cannot think of a time where the boat tried to sail off without us onboard - it has probably happened but I don't recall it.


It's all sort of automatic to me now (having done it way too many times), so it may not be coming across correctly.

The idea is, once the boat starts coming up, get to the old bottom hull (when capsized), which will be the new windward hull (when righted), pulling down on the dolphin striker cross-piece.

That should kill two birds: puts you in the right place to keep it from rolling all the way over, and for you to be the pivot point to make it turn into the wind.

Mike


That's not a sure bet on an F18. I've been there and had the boat turn downwind even with me hanging to windward on the dolphin striker bar. Even with me hanging onto the windward rudder I couldn't get it to turn. Only after I finally let go did it sail another 150 yards, gybe and capsize on its own.


Yep, my boat would not pivot from my weight on the striker. As said earlier, even in that location after about 5 seconds, the boat will already be at warp speed.

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: bacho] #263653
09/12/13 07:21 AM
09/12/13 07:21 AM
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tampa, fl
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Just a thought as I am reading and pondering this thread....As you prepare to right the boat, you will know what side of the boat will be windward once the boat is upright. How about keeping a piece of bungee in a handy spot that can be hooked to the tiller cross bar and then in a spot on what will be the leeward side so that when the boat is righted, the rudders will be locked in a position to turn the boat into the wind?


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: ksurfer2] #263654
09/12/13 07:28 AM
09/12/13 07:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Just a thought as I am reading and pondering this thread....As you prepare to right the boat, you will know what side of the boat will be windward once the boat is upright. How about keeping a piece of bungee in a handy spot that can be hooked to the tiller cross bar and then in a spot on what will be the leeward side so that when the boat is righted, the rudders will be locked in a position to turn the boat into the wind?


That's a thought....better get it in the right direction though.


Jake Kohl
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: JeffS] #263656
09/12/13 08:45 AM
09/12/13 08:45 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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Originally Posted by JeffS
Here's the best way to get back on
http://youtu.be/0ypF5c-NUuE


That only works when there is help around. Not likely.

Yes the issue is with the self tacker, but it's worse on my F18 then N20 by far, and the N20 also had a self tacker, professionally aligned rudder system etc. I think the primary differences are as follows:

1) N20 had a lot more sheet available on the jib for easing. We had the slack taken up under the tramp with a bungee system that crossed the boat 3 times. Now it's a single cross in the front beam

2) The N20 is a lot narrower boat with flat decks=much easier to get on board.

We've found getting to the windward side, quickly dipping under the boat and grabbing a trap handle to the be quickest way. Of course we decided to be all "professional" and get rid of the trap line handles (in favor of donuts), and the can't miss rings, which have an extra handle, are gone in favor of aluminum rings. We'll see how all this works out, I'm inclined to stick with the "newb" can't miss rings which are much easier to use when climbing back on board. They tend to fail though, which is my #1 reason for replacement.

Our righting line is permanently rigged under the tramp and pulled aft on a bungee, you can slide back on the tramp. Not sure about the loops described by a poster above in the tramp lacing, the helmsman can get caught on this lacing coming off the wire downwind so keep that lacing tight.


Scorpion F18
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: Jake] #263657
09/12/13 09:35 AM
09/12/13 09:35 AM
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tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
Just a thought as I am reading and pondering this thread....As you prepare to right the boat, you will know what side of the boat will be windward once the boat is upright. How about keeping a piece of bungee in a handy spot that can be hooked to the tiller cross bar and then in a spot on what will be the leeward side so that when the boat is righted, the rudders will be locked in a position to turn the boat into the wind?


That's a thought....better get it in the right direction though.


As I was rethinking this......It's pretty much an all or nothing solution to the problem....It'll be a brilliant fix or an epic fail.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263658
09/12/13 09:44 AM
09/12/13 09:44 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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...could adjust your setup to provide more auto-round up capability, ala most monohulls. Helms are lazy and want a perfectly balanced helm...a little weather helm might go a long way....big might given the main won't be trimmed. Hmmmm.

Last edited by samc99us; 09/12/13 09:44 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: ksurfer2] #263659
09/12/13 10:01 AM
09/12/13 10:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 382
SE MI / NE IN
rehmbo Offline OP
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SE MI / NE IN
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
As I was rethinking this......It's pretty much an all or nothing solution to the problem....It'll be a brilliant fix or an epic fail.

Either a parked boat or a quick gybe and another splash. Either way, little risk of toad's wild ride.


Looking back over the thread thus far, I see a few suggestions to help prevent the wild ride

1) Make sure the wind angle is forward of 90 during righting.
2) Grab dolphin striker immediately on low/windward side. (didn't work for me)
3) Possibly use bungee to lock rudder at angle (rudder angled down on the capsized boat assuming #1 is done)

The focus on getting back on the boat as quickly as possible is legitimate. Frankly, I'm not sure I can reach the trap handles from the water if the boat is moving. Too much freeboard and no ability to "swim" up to it. I've tried the crew trap, and its too high. Maybe skipper trap is easier. I guess its time to practice...

If its too late for the above and the boat is already really moving, I still kinda like the idea of dragging back hand-over-hand to the back of the boat on the righting line and then using the rudder, cross-bar, or tiller extension to steer the boat up (keeping the load on the righting line).


Jeff R

H18, C2 USA1193
cramsailing.com
crescentsail.com
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263660
09/12/13 10:04 AM
09/12/13 10:04 AM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
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M



how bout you position the main sheet so you can grab it as soon as you are righted? If the cat takes off ... you sheet the main in and let her capsize

Originally Posted by rehmbo
Originally Posted by ksurfer2
As I was rethinking this......It's pretty much an all or nothing solution to the problem....It'll be a brilliant fix or an epic fail.

Either a parked boat or a quick gybe and another splash. Either way, little risk of toad's wild ride.


Looking back over the thread thus far, I see a few suggestions to help prevent the wild ride

1) Make sure the wind angle is forward of 90 during righting.
2) Grab dolphin striker immediately on low/windward side. (didn't work for me)
3) Possibly use bungee to lock rudder at angle (rudder angled down on the capsized boat assuming #1 is done)

The focus on getting back on the boat as quickly as possible is legitimate. Frankly, I'm not sure I can reach the trap handles from the water if the boat is moving. Too much freeboard and no ability to "swim" up to it. I've tried the crew trap, and its too high. Maybe skipper trap is easier. I guess its time to practice...

If its too late for the above and the boat is already really moving, I still kinda like the idea of dragging back hand-over-hand to the back of the boat on the righting line and then using the rudder, cross-bar, or tiller extension to steer the boat up (keeping the load on the righting line).

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263661
09/12/13 10:21 AM
09/12/13 10:21 AM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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That doesn't work in reality. You have no leverage to sheet the main, the angle to the mainsheet can be coming down over your rudder system = bent rudder parts, all the while you are being dragged behind the boat and can possibly get tangled up in the mainsheet.


Scorpion F18
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263662
09/12/13 10:49 AM
09/12/13 10:49 AM
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brucat Offline
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OK, I'm a big guy, so maybe that helps my boats pivot. Haven't had to do this on an F18, but it works for me on H16s and Waves.

Having the wind forward before righting is critical in big wind, as it sets the boat heads-up into the wind as it's righted. Shouldn't matter which boat you have for this to work.

I try to avoid lines at all costs when the boat is over. Don't want to get pulled down if it turtles. Being dragged behind the boat by a sheet is no fun, either, especially if it won't head up.

Currently, my biggest problem is that there isn't a great way to get back onto a Wave once you're in the water. I made Hunter try to figure it out when he was swimming off the boat between races at Barnegat, and he used the rudder arm to get himself aboard. Only problem is that I outweigh him by about 200 pounds, and my rudder system would be a pretzel, with me still in the water, if I tried that... frown

Mike

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: brucat] #263675
09/12/13 01:25 PM
09/12/13 01:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
With the way F18s are carrying hull rocker, the helm changes depending on amount of weight aboard and placement. I sail with some weather helm (I think it helps me feel it better) but it still wants to round down when nobody is on the boat. I think the drag chute (drift sock) is good insurance while distance racing.


Jake Kohl
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: samc99us] #263713
09/12/13 04:39 PM
09/12/13 04:39 PM

M
MN3
Unregistered
MN3
Unregistered
M



works in my reality
I have gone over the back or side 2 times in my 14 sailing cats. both times i was able to hold on to the main, and when the boat took up all the slack, the boat flew a hull and capsized with no one on board


Originally Posted by samc99us
That doesn't work in reality. You have no leverage to sheet the main, the angle to the mainsheet can be coming down over your rudder system = bent rudder parts, all the while you are being dragged behind the boat and can possibly get tangled up in the mainsheet.

Last edited by MN3; 09/12/13 04:42 PM.
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263721
09/12/13 07:21 PM
09/12/13 07:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Lol, well clearly I live in an alternate universe...Jake's post above about covers the differences on a F18. Drag chute seems like the best idea in these 4 pages of reading.


Scorpion F18
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263726
09/12/13 11:04 PM
09/12/13 11:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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If the jib not sheeting out enough is part of the problem, would it help to disconnect from the clew?

My experience with the drift sock off the bow, ala Jake's set up, is that it does an excellent job of orienting the bows into the wind for righting, prevents drifting into possible hazards, and operates as a great brake if the boat starts to sail off.

Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: davefarmer] #263738
09/13/13 07:24 AM
09/13/13 07:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by davefarmer
If the jib not sheeting out enough is part of the problem, would it help to disconnect from the clew?...


If it is windy...as in enough that capsizing is a real problem...unpinning the jib will flog it to death and it would be tough to get it back on the sheet.


Jake Kohl
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: northsea junkie] #263756
09/13/13 01:11 PM
09/13/13 01:11 PM
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Posts: 522
Petten Netherlands
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northsea junkie Offline
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Petten Netherlands
Originally Posted by northsea junkie


For me as a single-handed sailor it means taking some measures while the cat is still on its side. For making it more easy for me to climb fast on board.




Here's a simple climbing ladder (have one on each side) which I can unfold in a few seconds when the cat is on its side.
So, I take the ladder near the lower hull in the water ending up automatically near the windward hull. I can grab the ladder ropes for holding the cat down after uprighting

Next the trick is to swing my leg over the centre rope which goes to the front, so under my crotch. When standing up on the wooden bar, grabbing the rope ladder, I am practically on board.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

With this procedure I hold my cat automatically in the wind (I'm the brake)

Last edited by northsea junkie; 09/13/13 01:16 PM.

ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: Capsize management in a breeze [Re: rehmbo] #263759
09/13/13 02:14 PM
09/13/13 02:14 PM
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brucat Offline
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Hobie Cat needs to make something like that for the Wave!

Mike

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