On the weekend we got down to the club and realized that we left our jib with our sail maker, Olympic Sails. With a good 15 to 18 knots blowing and sun shining we were not about to let this spoil our fun.

The race was a sprint race where the slow boats go first and the big fellas go last, counting the slow boats laps before hitting the water and lapping them the required amount of times. After 110 minutes a shorten course flag is flown on the next mark and the competitors head for the finish line with the first boat winning.

We rigged up, raked the rig forward about an inch on the forstay to account for weather helm and hit the water starting with another Tornado 50 minutes after the first boats started. After about 90 minutes after the first boat started we passed the lead boat closly followed by the sloop Tornado and on the upwind to the finish were overtaken to windward by the T and finished second.

I was very supprised at how quick the boat was in this breeze without the jib. Upwind we had a slight edge in hight and speed when we were powered up but in the lulls, suffered. The boat did not accelerate as quick out of tacks however and you had to be sharp with you tacks to power up out of it. We over exagerated our roll tacks to help us, lifting the leeward hull before changing sides. we also had to dive down a bit deeper after the tack to regain momentom before gaining hight. The 10 foot beam dose not tack as quick as an 8 footer.

Off the breeze we could not split the two boats but were a little quicker rounding the top and bottm marks as the crew did not have to worry about the jib.

This was a great fun race and realy tested your tacking ability. I recomend it as a bit of fun. You realy learn a bit from your boat.

I have sailed my Nacra6.0na a few times singled handed without the jib, and it seems to cut the power by a third. I can handle the boat up to 15 knots of wind this way, I'm 210 lbs..
Dave

What I don't understand is the following :

you first state

>>(we were) closly followed by the sloop Tornado and on the upwind to the finish were overtaken to windward by the (sloop) T and finished second.

And than you state

>>Upwind we had a slight edge in hight and speed when we were powered up but in the lulls, suffered.

So did you or did you not have an overall edge when going upwind. If so how can you be overtaken to windward by a sloop rig ? If not then how much of an edge did you momenterally ? Did you loose so too much time on the tacks ? Or did you loose more during the lulls than you gained in the gusts ? What do you call powered up ? Do you have any idea why you suffered in the lulls and not in the gusts ?

How do you and the other crew normally compare on the race course when both sailing with jibs ?



>>>Off the breeze we could not split the two boats but were a little quicker rounding the top and bottm marks as the crew did not have to worry about the jib.

I gether you were both flying your spi's ?

Did the other have a selftacker ?

Wouter

I tried this for the first time a few months back on my old SailCraft boat. It was rigged with a hobie style jib furler so I could easily get the jib back if needed. I was single-handed, not racing and the wind was 10-12 knots. I found tacking was quite easy, no real concern of getting into irons. Boat seemed to point at least as high as with jib and was still popping a hull up in the puffs. I was also surprised that there was no change in helm feel going to weather...and I didn't make any mast rake adjustments prior to departing. It did take a little time to learn to steer to windward without relying on the jib telltales though.

Still don't think this is a good heavy weather tactic as some seem to think. Boat seemed to still have plenty of power at ~12 knots wind speed...easily lifting the hull etc. I'll stick to my old technique of dropping the main when it gets too wild out there. Sailing on jib alone at > 20 knots windspeed is actually quite fun.

Mike.

We tried dropping the main and sailing on the jib alone once, but found it impossible to go to windward. Are there any tricks to it ?

We secured the jib on the trampoline and hoisted the main again instead, applied max downhaul and travelled it well out. Worked great, and this de-powered the boat a lot.

We will have to try sailing on the main alone for training purposes sometime in the spring..

On a side note: Some guy proposed to use frisbies as hatch covers when the boat was on the beach. We have tried this for some time now and it works great. The boat stays dry and no problems with 'foreign objects' in the hulls yet. Also we dont have to worry about the pressure building up in the hulls, as it does when the hatch cover is on.

Unfortunatly the top mark was close to the southern shore with a southerly breeze blowing. When we got close to it we were underpowered and only single traping. The finish line was closer to shore and the wind difference would have been about 10 knots. Neither of us could trap in this and the other T was powered up twin trap most of the time.

By powered up I mean two on trapeze hull flying and full downhaul. We had only a few boat lenghts advantage over the upwind but when the breeze died we kept a cover on them and in our wind shadow. On the last upwind they were able to power under us in a lull and we could not catch as we headed for the finish.



Ok we are normaly quicker...however over the season (since September) they have improved remarkably. At a regatta last fortnight they beat us in 1 off 5 races and were hot on our heels in 2 others.




Yes we were both flying spinnakers and he has a self tacker jib. We both use the same sail maker and we helped them with the rig conversion and tuning. We also helped them with their downwind technique and they are now trapezing of the rudder too.





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Thanks alot Tornado_alive,

You experiences will be noted, it may well find its way into an adjustment of spi penalty to a certain handicap rule hence my interest in these reference tests.


>>>Unfortunatly the top mark was close to the southern shore with a southerly breeze blowing. When we got close to it we were underpowered and only single traping. The finish line was closer to shore and the wind difference would have been about 10 knots. Neither of us could trap in this and the other T was powered up twin trap most of the time.

Sound about right with the ratios for jib power we use right now. Or I should say it doesn't contradict it.


>>By powered up I mean two on trapeze hull flying and full downhaul.

Maximum rig power I understand Thanks. Were the guys with jib letting the main out or were they at the end of their downwind with the main centred. I want to know wether the main and jib can be expected to both produce maximum power or wether the jib was adding disproportionally to the overall sailpower.


>>>We had only a few boat lenghts advantage over the upwind but when the breeze died we kept a cover on them and in our wind shadow. On the last upwind they were able to power under us in a lull and we could not catch as we headed for the finish.
>>>Ok we are normaly quicker...however over the season (since September) they have improved remarkably. At a regatta last fortnight they beat us in 1 off 5 races and were hot on our heels in 2 others.


So you would you consider the following a fair statement :

The fact that you were sailing without the jib was sufficient to correct for the difference in skill that can be expected between you and the other crew on the upwind legs ?

What would the outcome be if you switched setups in your estimation ? (To bad we don't have this as data that would have been really interesting)

Thanks alot for your replies,

Wouter

Hi WOuter & Steve,
Similar experience way back in 1987 (!) crewing on a Mosquito in our National champs, old style olympic course. Fairly strong wind blowing, travelled out a bit on mainsail. After the 1st triangle we were lying 3rd, our jib halyard broke. Skipper was so pissed off that he wanted to retire, but I hauled the jib down, stuffed it in a tramp pocket & convinced him that a "bad position" would be better than DNF. We were now in 11th place in a fleet of 24, and worked our way back up to 6th through the rest of the race. We were fully powered up most of the race, pointed higher than our opponents, but tacked slower - no practice without jib ! We held position on the upwinds, sometimes gaining a place or 2. We gained the most places double-trapping down the reaches, passing a few sloops each leg, I found this quite strange. Managed to hold them off on the runs (Mozzies used to run goose-winged in those days !) The wind was in the 20`s, probably peaking at 25 knots.
I won`t forget that race until I`m really old.

Cheers
Steve

When I'd single-hand my 18 in heavy air, I'd often furl up the jib for the upwind legs, and unfurl it for the downwind legs. Worked pretty well. The 18 sailed pretty decently that way, and many years of tacking a Hobie-14 meant I had no problem tacking the 18 this way. I miss roller furling on my 20. Maybe for Christmas...

Rolf,

Trick for sailing to weather under jib alone is not to

I only do this when things get too scary to handle, esp. when needing to head off wind and not risk pitchpolling. You cannot head higher than about 50 deg off apparent wind with jib alone..and the rudder loading can get really high (leehelm!), but the boat moves quite well...I've hit 12 knots in some bad blows. Tacking is quite difficult, esp. in heavy chop. If you must reach an upwind local, you can always gybe around the long way and work your way up there.

Mike.

The guys had full downhaul and were twisting of the main a bit to depower. We had full downhaul and main block to block.



If we had a jib we would probably have beaten them convincingly as we love it when it blows. If we swapped I think the result would have been the same (we beat them).

The loss of the jib would have made up for the skill level a bit but not as much as I would have expected. If we did not have to sail underpowered in the lulls I don't think there would be much of a speed difference between sloop and cat.

While revisiting this thread, I feel compelled to reply to each and all of you catsailors. I must, however, first reply to Keith, who has struck a chord with me. I was a solo sailor on a Hobie 18.

When you look at a modern catamaran you see such things as a Marstom 20 that sports a good sized mainsail and then has a great, big downwind sail. The Hobie 18, while adequately powered-up for a crew of two, has a very nice upwind power to weight ratio in moderate air for a solo sailor. Then downind, it can really "burn the coal" when the huge genoa is deployed. This is sailing the cat in its 'factory, stock' configuration. (circa 1978-ish)

The most pleasant day (of my cat-sailing life) involved a Hobie 18 and a windy day that disallowed me from flying my jib (genoa, nearly a "reacher" by today's standards) on the upwind runs. But when the downwind leg came to be, I was able to unfurl that great, big genoa and sail the downwind leg as if I was flying an asymetrical spinnaker!

I really think that we are going to see a future in cat-sailing that involves two sails; the mainsail and the downwind reacher. Hooray for the Hobie 18 for being on the forefront of the 'wave' of catsailing for the new melinium. (disclaimer: I don't sail a Hobie, don't give a care if Hobiecat ever succeeds or fails, nor do I care who builds the best catamaran, as long as I own one of them) (best equals 'the best cat for me')

My best suggestion for those who experiment with "main alone:" Try to relize and remember that you are sailing much higher (closer to the wind) than you would be sailing if you would have had a jib. Also, remember the huge amount of weather helm; when you tack, turn as far away from the wind as you can. When the rig 'powers up', you will naturally come back up, close to weather. Resist the tendancy for the boat to 'round up' to the wind!


The catamaran sailing community is moving through a change of sailing techniques. Jibs are being replaced by spinnakers, hooters, reachers, screachers, gennikers, and many other "off the wind sails." It is time that a lot of cat sailors will learn the new techniques that are associated with the new rigs. It is time to learn the new, and faster, sailing styles, or else... go fly a kite.

GARY

Hello,
We had to sail with the main down and just the jib up once. The comp tip had broken on the TheMightyHobie18. Made it about a mile upwind to the original launch spot. good wind and big boards prolly explain our success.
We roll the jib up quite alot due to strong winds. Also i have old tornado sails on the boat. shortened the main at the top and stock old jib.
Between the smaller jib and sailing w/ a furled jib the rudder pins bend every time we go out in the strong trades. the weather helm isn't excessive even with the jib furled though.

I once read that the function of a Tornado's jib was to "get the wee beasties head through the wind"

Interesting experiences guys, thanks for sharing them.

Anybody have experience sailing an F18 without the jib singlehanded or doublehanded in a blow? Would one expect it to behave similarly or different from an TheMightyHobie18 or T?

Also, when some of you guys dropped your main to sail jib only in a blow, any problems keeping the boat under control while dropping or re-raising the sail? Were you singlehanding or with crew at the time?

Jerry

I can now claim to have sailed all 3 of those boats (F18(HT), the TheMightyHobie18 and Tornado) since I crewed on an F18HT in the nationals two weeks ago in FL. In the short time I actually helmed the HT, I can say the helm felt quite neutral (heavy air day) and the boat was responsive. While under spinnaker, it was a little twitchy. Can't say it felt much different to the Tornado w. main only. A surprise 'cause I thought the T would be more off balance since the mast placement with regrade to centerboard placement was designed with the jib in mind.

I've singlehanded the TheMightyHobie18 & Tornado many times and sailed both with just the jib a few times in strong blows. Dropping the main is always straightforward...just payout some traveller and turn rudder to weather, effectively stopping the boat ("heave-to" mode), secure the tiller under a foot strap or otherwise to hold the boat in the same position while you go to the mast and drop the sail. Usually is helps to bring the sail down slowly, rolling it as it comes out of the track...this stops it blowing overboard before it's all the way off the mast. Then I just stuff the rolled sail under the footstraps and off I go wit the jib alone. Now usually if there enough wind to make me drop the main, my first thought it to head in an call it a day after getting the main down. On occasion I have re-hoisted the main and continued sailing as normal if condtions change. Re-hoisting is just the reverse of dropping, except there will be less wind (if not...why are you putting the sail back up??).

Thanks for the input, Mike.

I had assumed it would be harder to control the boat while taking down the sail. I appreciate the input.

Jerry