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Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269476
02/18/14 09:03 AM
02/18/14 09:03 AM
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ileestma Offline OP
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The pole is permanently affixed to the rear crossbeam. You will notice that i mocked up the understay system with extra line i had laying around. a cable goes from the back beam to the bottom of the DS, then two cables extend from the bottom of the DS forward. one goes under the jib, and the other goes through a spreader to the pole end. Thats my downhaul for my jib, and my chute.

Because of the loading angle, pulling those cables tight will not only pull down, but also back, and that's why the pole goes to the back beam. It has been shaped and sets on the back beam flush, and will be bolted secure, allowing any y-axis loading to go through the center pole in column.

The DS rod WILL be getting loaded up. but the loads will be directed THROUGH the bolt on the Z-axis (understay pushing up, mast pushing down) not across the bolt on the y-axis. to ensure that, the pole had to go all the way back.

Also like i said earler, that DS rod has an 180,000 PSI tensile strength. Stock Stainless has 75k.

There are advantages to having the pole there too. I am setting the boat up as a singlehanded boat. the pole gives me a place to attach my mainsheet, and using thru hull blocks, i will have my spin halyard and retreival lines on the center pole via flip flop blocks. a few other controls will be routed there as well.


Last edited by ileestma; 02/18/14 09:07 AM.
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Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269477
02/18/14 09:39 AM
02/18/14 09:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Huh. that's different. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the advantages of that over the traditional method of pinning the spin pole to the leading edge of the front beam and supporting it from the forestay. With the spin pole running all the way to the rear beam and through the dolphin striker rod would also be pretty tough to disassemble for trailering but it doesn't sound like that's on your list of needs.

Any side to side or fore/aft moments induced by the mast are usually carried by the front beam and how it's keyed into the hulls so the need for a pole there were eliminated in the 80s. The early versions of the Nacra 5.2 (I had one) had a bar that connected between the front and rear beams to prevent the beams from rotating. It sat in the middle of the trampoline and was commonly referred to as the "knee knocker". It was pretty obstructive. Later versions had the front beam pinned to the hull straps (literally a rivet that was drilled through the straps and into the beam) in order to carry the moment arms induced by the mast loads and prevent rotation.

One concern I would have with that pole, and this is from some direct experience...is that in a capsize, it looks like it's possible to slide your leg(s) between the trampoline and that pole and get trapped (and/or injured) there. That would be my biggest concern.


Jake Kohl
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269481
02/18/14 10:05 AM
02/18/14 10:05 AM

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how are you incorporating that lawn mower?
my guess is you will be pointing the blades aft?

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269482
02/18/14 10:12 AM
02/18/14 10:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
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Greenville SC
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What is going on at the DS/spin pole intersection? Do you have any sort of reinforcement? My thoughts were that the pole might want to move around the DS rod and cause a weak spot.

The pole flexes and moves on my boats, with only one traditional hard point that's not much of an issue. I think you would have to be more careful having 2 hard points.

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269485
02/18/14 10:31 AM
02/18/14 10:31 AM
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ileestma Offline OP
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Jake,

I hear ya. The reason i need to bring the pole all the way back is to bring the loading securely back to where it is originating, at the back beam attachment point for the understay.

This is more a safety measure than anything else. Keep in mind that because of the pretty severe angle (i didnt dare drop the DS any lower) there is going to be alot of tension on the y-axis to get enough force down on the Z-axis. when i say alot, i mean upwards of 800+ lbs. I did not want this to simply be absorbed by the front beam, the flex from the beam alone could make tuning a bear. Instead all that force goes down the central member, to the origination point of the loads. That way it keeps the "collateral" y-axis forces isolated from the rest of the boat, and rig, while retaining the z-axis loads placed under the forestay.

Check out the GC32's, or the AC45's they did the same thing, for the same reason. with the small exception of using carbon.

I had not thought of getting trapped. perhaps i can have a sleeve sew into the tramp...


as for the lawnmower, i plan to attach a 30 foot articulating sprit to the base of the mast, supported by a boom and truss system tied to the mast head, which allows 360 degree movement using an electric motor and swivel. The "chopper" will automatically engage at the 1 minute gun, clearing a 30 foot circle around my boat, and guaranteeing me a slot to leward at the start. but i'm in touch with RC to see how this will affect my D-pn.

Last edited by ileestma; 02/18/14 10:52 AM.
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269486
02/18/14 10:38 AM
02/18/14 10:38 AM
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yes it is reinforced. there is a compression tube inside the spin pole just like there is in the front cross member. Additionally, there will 1/4 inch thick by 6 inch long by 1 inch wide plating on the top and bottom of the center pole to spread loads. the pole itself will be bolted onto the DS rod quite tightly hence the compression tube. it shouldnt move. smile

2 hard points was a challenge though you're right. i had to hand shape the back end of the pole to make sure the span was perfect, with load on the back, and the DS hole centered...

Last edited by ileestma; 02/18/14 10:49 AM.
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269490
02/18/14 11:21 AM
02/18/14 11:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by ileestma
Jake,

I hear ya. The reason i need to bring the pole all the way back is to bring the loading securely back to where it is originating, at the back beam attachment point for the understay.

This is more a safety measure than anything else. Keep in mind that because of the pretty severe angle (i didnt dare drop the DS any lower) there is going to be alot of tension on the y-axis to get enough force down on the Z-axis. when i say alot, i mean upwards of 800+ lbs. I did not want this to simply be absorbed by the front beam, the flex from the beam alone could make tuning a bear. Instead all that force goes down the central member, to the origination point of the loads. That way it keeps the "collateral" y-axis forces isolated from the rest of the boat, and rig, while retaining the z-axis loads placed under the forestay.

Check out the GC32's, or the AC45's they did the same thing, for the same reason. with the small exception of using carbon.

I had not thought of getting trapped. perhaps i can have a sleeve sew into the tramp...


as for the lawnmower, i plan to attach a 30 foot articulating sprit to the base of the mast, supported by a boom and truss system tied to the mast head, which allows 360 degree movement using an electric motor and swivel. The "chopper" will automatically engage at the 1 minute gun, clearing a 30 foot circle around my boat, and guaranteeing me a slot to leward at the start. but i'm in touch with RC to see how this will affect my D-pn.


Do you have a Y structure rigging going back to the corners of the rear beam? The reason the AC72 and AC45 carry the rigging under the chin of the pole is to make the entire platform more rigid. It helped carry the headsail loads and control hull wracking. Most didn't actually have a center member from front beam to rear beam. That pole might help with the rotation of the beam and carry a little of the mainsheet compression loads - but not that much. The only center member they (Oracle) had was for to form an aerodynamic end plate for the wing. The pod between the main beam and rear beam was not considerably structural.

Don't get me wrong - I'm in admiration of your work and applaud what you are sharing with us. I'm just interested in the technical aspect of it and I think you can make it simpler.

[Linked Image]

Also of note...and I experienced this from helping to redesign and rebuilding the waterstays on this boat last weekend. Synthetic rigging will stretch and kick your butt in an application like this.

[Linked Image]

We still have gigantic turnbuckles to go on the rear waterstays shown here: Loads on these stays probably approach 8,000 lbs under the main beam.

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: Jake] #269492
02/18/14 11:22 AM
02/18/14 11:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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That thing (the second picture) definitely looks like an EC winner smile


Jay

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: waterbug_wpb] #269493
02/18/14 11:26 AM
02/18/14 11:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
That thing (the second picture) definitely looks like an EC winner smile


grin It's a beast. I'm still shocked at how well it goes and how dry the bows stay. It's feather light on the helm too - I'm in awe of the skill Alan showed in designing and building it. There are two boats that are potentially faster than us but we have a comfort advantage. It will be interesting to see which one is more important.


Jake Kohl
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: Jake] #269495
02/18/14 11:28 AM
02/18/14 11:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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camp stove with a wind screen and you're all set !


Jay

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269496
02/18/14 11:33 AM
02/18/14 11:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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hmmm...it does appear that the AC45's carried the pole to the rear beam like you describe. They don't even have sheet loads to contend with...I'll have to think about what you're building and wrap my head around the benefits of that. My intial thought is that it is primarily just to help transmit the extra headsail loads that come with flying a straight luff head sail but that it doesn't have much of anything to do with carrying mast loads.

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269497
02/18/14 12:02 PM
02/18/14 12:02 PM
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ileestma Offline OP
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No Y structure. your pic is of an AC72, check out the AC45

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_83C0d9qWNoU/TTSxNJ9cjCI/AAAAAAAAbsk/FsHxcMc4g3k/s1600/AC45NZ1D6_3772.jpg

and GC32

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z5e2BSoHy.../gmIks7OFvFc/s1600/GC32AustriaCup189.jpg


Why do these boats have a central cross member?


you said the AC45 and AC72 used understays to "make the entire platform more rigid. It helped carry the headsail loads" -right, that's what i hope to do. All the headsail and forstay loads will be carried by the understay. My alternative if i wanted to keep my NA jib on a furler with an 11.5 foot beam was to build an 8 foot wide bowfoil, which seemed absurd, and was a very heavy proposition.

Because of the severe angle of the understay, for every 1 lb of downward force, i will have 4.88 lbs of rearward force. that means i will have between 700-800 pounds pushing the pole directly back (this is isolated rearward force not total force) do you think i can have that force just dead end into the center of the front cross beam?

As for synthetic rigging, i wouldn't dream of it. i have my 1x19 cable ready to go smile

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269498
02/18/14 12:02 PM
02/18/14 12:02 PM
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ileestma Offline OP
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oops didnt see your reply!

Last edited by ileestma; 02/18/14 12:04 PM.
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: Jake] #269499
02/18/14 12:08 PM
02/18/14 12:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
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From a metallurgical point of view, I'm curious as to what grade of aluminum is being used for the cross beams or if that was even considered. Torsional loads and tensile loads increasing with the increased beam width.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269500
02/18/14 12:44 PM
02/18/14 12:44 PM
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ileestma Offline OP
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Aluminum 4 OD X .125 WALL (3.750 ID) 6061-T6

a good deal thicker than stock tubes, which i measured at just under .08 wall.

I couldn't find confirmation of what grade Nacra uses, but considering the marine application, (corrosive resistance essential) and the fact that the integral kedar rail is welded in (machinability/weldability essential), i have a hard time believing they use a 7XXX series alloy which is stronger than my grade. -Most likely they used a 6-series T6 like i am. of course 6061 is the stronger end of the 6-series spectrum.

-I would've liked to go a couple hundredths thicker but it was .125 or .250, no in between. .25 would have been just stupid.

I did do my deflection rate calcs on the beams and i believe it looks ok. That being said, as a matter of principle, i will not be having 2 guys on the wire, ever, and this whole thing is designed as a singlehander, meaning just my 200 lbs to contend with.

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269501
02/18/14 12:58 PM
02/18/14 12:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by ileestma
Aluminum 4 OD X .125 WALL (3.750 ID) 6061-T6

a good deal thicker than stock tubes, which i measured at just under .08 wall.

I couldn't find confirmation of what grade Nacra uses, but considering the marine application, (corrosive resistance essential) and the fact that the integral kedar rail is welded in (machinability/weldability essential), i have a hard time believing they use a 7XXX series alloy which is stronger than my grade. -Most likely they used a 6-series T6 like i am. of course 6061 is the stronger end of the 6-series spectrum.

-I would've liked to go a couple hundredths thicker but it was .125 or .250, no in between. .25 would have been just stupid.

I did do my deflection rate calcs on the beams and i believe it looks ok. That being said, as a matter of principle, i will not be having 2 guys on the wire, ever, and this whole thing is designed as a singlehander, meaning just my 200 lbs to contend with.


I would be very surprised if the nacra beams use anything better than a 6061.

I think I'm with you now...Is your forestay pinning directly to the pole or will you have bridles?


Jake Kohl
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: Jake] #269503
02/18/14 01:17 PM
02/18/14 01:17 PM
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ileestma Offline OP
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"Is your forestay pinning directly to the pole or will you have bridles?"

Neither. It will attach directly to the understay via a piece i am machining. The piece will pass through the center of the pole vertically. pics to follow.

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269504
02/18/14 02:11 PM
02/18/14 02:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by ileestma
"Is your forestay pinning directly to the pole or will you have bridles?"

Neither. It will attach directly to the understay via a piece i am machining. The piece will pass through the center of the pole vertically. pics to follow.


Ok, so instead of letting angled bridles carry the forestay (and translate that into inward and upward forces on the hulls), you are dropping it to this structure under the pole and carrying the majority of that forestay load with what is essentially a truss style lever arm supported between the two beams. I understand and that makes sense.


Jake Kohl
Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269505
02/18/14 02:55 PM
02/18/14 02:55 PM
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ileestma Offline OP
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exactly. Only it will be ALL the forestay loads, not just the majority.

Actually, because of the extreme width, i could run all the side to side cables from the front beam eyes i installed. I have half a mind to not use the forward chainplates at all.

this guy didn't:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/at...cra-20-lifting-foils-mini-hydroptere.jpg

Re: Understay for forestay support [Re: ileestma] #269515
02/19/14 04:51 AM
02/19/14 04:51 AM

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Brilliant!
Originally Posted by ileestma
as for the lawnmower, i plan to attach a 30 foot articulating sprit to the base of the mast, supported by a boom and truss system tied to the mast head, which allows 360 degree movement using an electric motor and swivel. The "chopper" will automatically engage at the 1 minute gun, clearing a 30 foot circle around my boat, and guaranteeing me a slot to leward at the start. but i'm in touch with RC to see how this will affect my D-pn.

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