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Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271780
04/24/14 09:38 AM
04/24/14 09:38 AM
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brucat Offline
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If you need more hands for a video jury, add me to your list. If you are unclear of my qualifications, PM me.

Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: bacho] #271781
04/24/14 09:40 AM
04/24/14 09:40 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by bacho
It sounds like a situation that a gps tracker could have simplified. We're such devices in use for that race?


Everyone typically had a GPS unit for navigation and there was talk about having the teams submit their tracks to prove their innocence. I don't recall if this actually took place.

Sat nav (spots or EPIRBS) didn't exist. Epirbs at the time were a little more rudimentary in that they could signal a satellite to indicate an emergency but they couldn't transmit their location. The satellite would get rescue teams close but the EPIRB also emitted a warble locator signal on the aircraft beacon frequency that rescue crews could zero in on with radio equipment.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271805
04/24/14 12:24 PM
04/24/14 12:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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Thank you for all of the feedback on the Sailing Instructions. It will be taken into consideration. We will post the next revision on or before May 1st.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271810
04/24/14 01:00 PM
04/24/14 01:00 PM
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Detroit, MI
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Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Thank you for all of the feedback on the Sailing Instructions. It will be taken into consideration.

That's exactly what a race officer tells a judge when they have edits to SIs, when the RO really means, "FU, these are my SIs, not yours."

Not that you're saying that. Not at all.

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: mbounds] #271811
04/24/14 01:16 PM
04/24/14 01:16 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Thank you for all of the feedback on the Sailing Instructions. It will be taken into consideration.

That's exactly what a race officer tells a judge when they have edits to SIs, when the RO really means, "FU, these are my SIs, not yours."

Not that you're saying that. Not at all.


Craig is acting as punching bag here, relay-er of information, and punching bag on the other side. He's pretty skinny to endure all of that. There are a number of people that the changes need to go through.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271820
04/24/14 06:57 PM
04/24/14 06:57 PM
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brucat Offline
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Matt has a good point (and we see that a lot, so I was thinking along similar lines for a while), but reading through some of Craig's prior posts, it seems pretty clear to me that's not his M.O.

Never really hurts to run the SIs through another RO or judge, though.

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271823
04/24/14 08:11 PM
04/24/14 08:11 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by bacho
It sounds like a situation that a gps tracker could have simplified. We're such devices in use for that race?


Everyone typically had a GPS unit for navigation and there was talk about having the teams submit their tracks to prove their innocence. I don't recall if this actually took place.

Sat nav (spots or EPIRBS) didn't exist. Epirbs at the time were a little more rudimentary in that they could signal a satellite to indicate an emergency but they couldn't transmit their location. The satellite would get rescue teams close but the EPIRB also emitted a warble locator signal on the aircraft beacon frequency that rescue crews could zero in on with radio equipment.


IIRC their GPS tracks magically disappeared that night, and their course was blamed on a buddy who was also on RC. It definitely cast a bad shadow on that year, which goes to show it should have been handled swiftly and to the letter of the law in the SIs. If it had, no one would even remember it.
A couple of years later, I actually confronted the skipper of one of the boats at an A cat regatta (not Mischa) and it almost came to blows. Later that night we made peace, drank beers, became friends, and I found out he trained by boxing. Needless to say I was pretty glad it didn't come to blows.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271825
04/24/14 08:22 PM
04/24/14 08:22 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Thank you for all of the feedback on the Sailing Instructions. It will be taken into consideration.

That's exactly what a race officer tells a judge when they have edits to SIs, when the RO really means, "FU, these are my SIs, not yours."

Not that you're saying that. Not at all.


Craig is acting as punching bag here, relay-er of information, and punching bag on the other side. He's pretty skinny to endure all of that. There are a number of people that the changes need to go through.


+1 Craig is the messenger, and I've given him plenty of punches. I thank him again for all of his work on this. The end game is really making it work for the organizers, the RC and especially the racers;).Most of the organizers involved have never done one of these races and see it from an RC point of view. Hopefully,This thread has helped alot to balance the perspective from both sides. The times that I've helped with RC work at big events, I can't help but feel that sometimes there is an underlying trend of the RC feeling they are competing with the competitors rather than working to make the race better. This is the sole reason I speak out about the things I think need to be addressed. It'd be very easy to just go race, take advantage of the loopholes or absence of rules and go home, but that will not help to nurture this race , or any ,into thriving.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271831
04/25/14 06:44 AM
04/25/14 06:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by cyberspeed
Thank you for all of the feedback on the Sailing Instructions. It will be taken into consideration.

That's exactly what a race officer tells a judge when they have edits to SIs, when the RO really means, "FU, these are my SIs, not yours."

Not that you're saying that. Not at all.


Craig is acting as punching bag here, relay-er of information, and punching bag on the other side. He's pretty skinny to endure all of that. There are a number of people that the changes need to go through.


+1 Craig is the messenger, and I've given him plenty of punches. I thank him again for all of his work on this. The end game is really making it work for the organizers, the RC and especially the racers;).Most of the organizers involved have never done one of these races and see it from an RC point of view. Hopefully,This thread has helped alot to balance the perspective from both sides. The times that I've helped with RC work at big events, I can't help but feel that sometimes there is an underlying trend of the RC feeling they are competing with the competitors rather than working to make the race better. This is the sole reason I speak out about the things I think need to be addressed. It'd be very easy to just go race, take advantage of the loopholes or absence of rules and go home, but that will not help to nurture this race , or any ,into thriving.


I never thought of it this way - but I totally agree.


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271836
04/25/14 08:04 AM
04/25/14 08:04 AM
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brucat Offline
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Todd, couldn't agree more with your last two posts.

Without getting into a lot of detail, I've been very fortune to have worked with some of the best ROs in the business. The single common trait that separates these guys from the rest is their unwavering commitment to the sailors. Their races, in all aspects including SIs, is all about giving the clients (sailors) what they want, and the best possible racing.

Obviously, this can be challenging at times, but this is my goal as well.

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271850
04/25/14 01:19 PM
04/25/14 01:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
For starters, the protest has nothing to do with an insurance claim although it is never a bad idea in this regard. A protest committee NEVER assigns "fault". Protest committees only assign penalties as it relates to breaches of the rules. The fact that this may or may not affect or influence the decision of an insurance company is completely arbitrary.

Protest Committee (in the USA) does not adjudicate any claim for damages (see USS Prescription 67(b)). However, "by participating in an event governed by the rules, a boat agrees that responsibility for damages arising from any breach of the rules shall be based on fault as determined by application of the rules...". See USS Prescription 67(c).
  1. Because an insurance company cannot apply the rules without knowing what happened, it is vitally important to have a protest hearing that provides finding of facts.
  2. Because you cannot depend on an insurance company knowing anything about the rules, it's vitally important to have a protest hearing to apply the rules and determine fault.
So yes, protest committee does determine "fault", and yes, that determination directly affects an insurance claim.

Regards,
Eric


Eric +1 on every one of your posts in this thread.
Warren told me the arbitration comm. has the same effect("The results of an arbitration committee may be used for insurance purposes as the results of a Protest committee."). Not sure how it gets handled when no one is requesting redress but has a protest to lodge for a rules infraction, of which it is supposed to be your responsibility to protest.This concerns me, even though I've only ever filed one in my life also (to get redress).
I'm pretty much to the point where I'm done pointing out stuff on here because with the exception of Eric, many (Mike) seem to justify or create a straw man to try to argue their point for breaking the rules, that still doesn't make it right or legal. For example:Communication and outside assistance are different things. Outside assistance requires communication but not vice versa.
Sam, The Spots are not mandatory for the 300(per the SIs) unless you are going to use it instead of an Epirb.They may be for the sprint thing, not sure.


+1.

The SI's are confusing. Rule 8.5 is the issue:

It is suggested each boat to have onboard SPOT affixed in such a manner that it has a clear view of the
sky and is able to successfully transmit data to the Satellite Tracking System. SPOTs will be used for tracking
and are required to be activated and functional in
“tracking mode” at all times while racing.
The RC will be
provided with relevant serial number information, etc. from
each tracking device so as to be sufficient to
allow the competitors to be tracked.

Last edited by samc99us; 04/25/14 01:20 PM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271852
04/25/14 02:08 PM
04/25/14 02:08 PM
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brucat Offline
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Care to propose better verbiage?

I think the intent is for them to be required...

Mike

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271859
04/25/14 04:56 PM
04/25/14 04:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Add "IF spots are used" in front of "SPOTs will be used for tracking
and are required to be activated and functional in
“tracking mode”. Shows that it is optional. I thought the same as Sam until Craig got me straight on it.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271861
04/25/14 08:14 PM
04/25/14 08:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Add "IF spots are used" in front of "SPOTs will be used for tracking
and are required to be activated and functional in
“tracking mode”. Shows that it ism optional. I thought the same as Sam until Craig got me straight on it.


Todd is correct. They are not required but HIGHLY recommended. We will work on clarifying it more.


craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271874
04/26/14 07:28 AM
04/26/14 07:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Add "IF spots are used" in front of "SPOTs will be used for tracking
and are required to be activated and functional in
“tracking mode”. Shows that it is optional. I thought the same as Sam until Craig got me straight on it.


Hey! I just had an idea. Todd, be sure to have a SPOT. I'll call you every 10 minutes and tell you where to sail. wink


Jake Kohl
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271875
04/26/14 07:56 AM
04/26/14 07:56 AM
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Posts: 774
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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Now your on to something!

Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Jake] #271876
04/26/14 09:24 AM
04/26/14 09:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Jake
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Add "IF spots are used" in front of "SPOTs will be used for tracking
and are required to be activated and functional in
“tracking mode”. Shows that it is optional. I thought the same as Sam until Craig got me straight on it.


Hey! I just had an idea. Todd, be sure to have a SPOT. I'll call you every 10 minutes and tell you where to sail. wink


But if I go where you tell me I'll be 3 or 4 positions behind where I already was. Still ahead of Ding though, so there is that.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271909
04/28/14 04:54 PM
04/28/14 04:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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Last edited by cyberspeed; 04/28/14 04:55 PM.

craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
www.SailSeries.com
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: cyberspeed] #271914
04/28/14 08:22 PM
04/28/14 08:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Craig,you doing that fpv or los?


I'm boatless.
Re: Florida 300 May 19-May 22 [Re: Karl_Brogger] #271926
04/29/14 08:53 AM
04/29/14 08:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,066
Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
cyberspeed Offline OP
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cyberspeed  Offline OP
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Wellington, FL-Singer Island, ...
fpv. You could never get that line of sight.

I have a second receiver and can show on secondary screen like tv or jumbotron.

Last edited by cyberspeed; 04/29/14 09:02 AM.

craig van eaton
Supercat 20
TEAM CYBERSPEED
www.TeamCyberspeed.com
Endurance Series
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