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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: northsea junkie] #271989
04/30/14 09:13 AM
04/30/14 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by northsea junkie
Originally Posted by Jake
[Linked Image]
Untitled by Green Room Graphics, on Flickr

This is what I'm talking about...a much more open loop than the DaKine style straps.


But Jake, the openess of the loop that you want, is fully determined by how you screw the strap on the hull.

Mounted on a horizontal level you can bend the strapends before the fixation a little so that they make a little horizontal angle to each other, resulting in any openess that you want. (Besides the fact that you can adjust the bow itself by the screw distance and the adjustable velcro-mechanism.)

Your fixation with one strapend horizontal and one vertical on the transom itself, I would never use. What do you gain :one or two inches more backward? But your method makes it clear why you have troubles with forming a nice fit for the Dakines.

I like to comment more on the almost standard common used strap position on cat-hulls :

[Linked Image]Afb002 by northseajunkie, on Flickr[/img]

You see that I created a much more vertical angled platform for my both feet and I made a specific full platform for my strap. The risk of being trapped in a fall, or when loosing the wire, is much less now. Besides it stands much more comfortable for your feet.

It seems to me that footstraps and their position are still a "stepchild" for cathull designers. You can see on the new Nacra-17's that they made a small step in adapting the hull form a little bit, but not enough TMnHO.


NSJ- Are those 'Prindle' (Nacra) rudder blades? Look just like the old P16,P18,P18-2, P19 blade shape and style.


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: mikekrantz] #271990
04/30/14 09:21 AM
04/30/14 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mikekrantz
I can confirm what Pepin said. At the A-class worlds last Feb. It was determined that mounting the footstrap with the tab on the rear off the hull constituted part of the hull length and violated the class rule regarding hull length. Everyone had to move their strap forward to comply with the class rules. Rudders and their hardware are excluded, provided the leading edge of the rudder is no more than 3" of the transom. If the leading edge of the rudder is more than 3" of the transom, then the rudder is considered part of the hull measure meant, and the trailing edge is used to determine the 18' max hull length.


Mike's Spot on.


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #271991
04/30/14 09:26 AM
04/30/14 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Downwind, got it. Probably not as easy as it sounds, especially if the crew is separated (said Captain Obvious)...

Mike


Yep, downwind. The flogging alone ( in normal or better breeze) of the kite up wind will flip you with no sheet tension.You definitely need more than 2 hands. That's one of the main reasons I don't like racing in the same start as singlehanded spin boats.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
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If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Todd_Sails] #271994
04/30/14 10:22 AM
04/30/14 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Todd_Sails


NSJ- Are those 'Prindle' (Nacra) rudder blades? Look just like the old P16,P18,P18-2, P19 blade shape and style.


Yes, they are inspired by the good oldfashioned Prindle style.
I made the blades and the castings all by myself. I can pull the blades down after starting in the break with a rope from the luff-side at the tramp.
That's the main reason why I have chosen for this old design.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 04/30/14 10:32 AM.

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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #271996
04/30/14 10:32 AM
04/30/14 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
I can confirm what Pepin said. At the A-class worlds last Feb. It was determined that mounting the footstrap with the tab on the rear off the hull constituted part of the hull length and violated the class rule regarding hull length. Everyone had to move their strap forward to comply with the class rules. Rudders and their hardware are excluded, provided the leading edge of the rudder is no more than 3" of the transom. If the leading edge of the rudder is more than 3" of the transom, then the rudder is considered part of the hull measure meant, and the trailing edge is used to determine the 18' max hull length.


Mike's Spot on.


Are you agreeing with the interpretation/ decision, or just the narrative of what happened?

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: rehmbo] #271997
04/30/14 10:34 AM
04/30/14 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rehmbo


I like the idea of a break-away "fuse" that fails before your foot does.


I've been thinking about this a little bit and trying to come up with a fuse geometry that would work. I think you would want a strap where a load applied vertically or forward (as you would get from a hard stuff) is not going to release, but a torsional load would blow the fuse.

It's also tough because the direction of the torsion makes a difference. I've been pivoted forward into the hull before when in the straps, but I wouldn't want that to release me necessarily because the stopping of my forward motion prevented a pitch and we kept truckin'.

I also think it would be important to be able to set the "breakaway" load on the strap as a function of crew size/weight.

I'm going to keep thinking about it, maybe try to build something.


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #271998
04/30/14 10:46 AM
04/30/14 10:46 AM
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Then again, would you risk an accidental opening during a race situation in an effort to prevent a fairly rare injury?

Not sure I would.


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #271999
04/30/14 10:55 AM
04/30/14 10:55 AM
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Doesn't matte to me, as long as it is applied the same to everyone, everywhere.

The 18' rule only has an exclusion for the rudder assembly, so therefore the strap is interpreted to be part of the hull.

What if I made a strap that continued down the back of the transom and then flared out at the water line to effectively extend the water line? I could argue that it was part of the footstrap design, if footstraps were excluded from the 18' length rule...

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272000
04/30/14 10:56 AM
04/30/14 10:56 AM
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We always made out strap opening so large, that you had to twist/rotate your foot forward or backward to make it grip. Then if you relaxed your foot or pointed it straight, it would come out immediately.

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272001
04/30/14 11:05 AM
04/30/14 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
I can confirm what Pepin said. At the A-class worlds last Feb. It was determined that mounting the footstrap with the tab on the rear off the hull constituted part of the hull length and violated the class rule regarding hull length. Everyone had to move their strap forward to comply with the class rules. Rudders and their hardware are excluded, provided the leading edge of the rudder is no more than 3" of the transom. If the leading edge of the rudder is more than 3" of the transom, then the rudder is considered part of the hull measure meant, and the trailing edge is used to determine the 18' max hull length.


Mike's Spot on.


Are you agreeing with the interpretation/ decision, or just the narrative of what happened?

Mike


My statement was to the narrative, but I agree with the interpretation also. See Mike Krantz's(#27199) above post. Sailing H-16s you might think what he says above sounds ludicrous, but A catters will do ANYTHING to get an edge,no matter how small, hence the cassettes to make L foils work. That sounded ludicrous until a couple of guys did it.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Jeff.Dusek] #272002
04/30/14 11:20 AM
04/30/14 11:20 AM
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There was a windsurfing footstrap manufacturer a while ago that made break away foot straps (Footsavers I think they were called). Basically all it was they had an extra piece of Velcro that went between the overlapping Velcro pieces that hold the two halves of the strap together. This extra piece of Velcro "neutralized" a portion of the other Velcro so there was less force holding the two halves of the strap together. You custom tailored the holding power to your liking by increasing or decreasing the amount of overlap of this "extra" piece of Velcro. There's no reason you couldn't do the same thing on most foot straps made today.

Another possible solution would be to use a break-away screw to mount the strap to the boat. A nylon screw would have much less holding power than the stainless machine screws normally used.

I don't really understand the rationale of using only one foot strap. I've windsurfed for almost two decades and the only time I've ever had any concern using the straps is when one foot pops out and the other stays in. The potential for foot and knee injury goes way up when one foot is planted and the other is unrestrained. Seems to me that having two foot straps mounted on the hull would go a long way towards improving safety and giving a more secure ride for the crew.

sm

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: mikekrantz] #272004
04/30/14 11:40 AM
04/30/14 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mikekrantz
Doesn't matte to me, as long as it is applied the same to everyone, everywhere.

The 18' rule only has an exclusion for the rudder assembly, so therefore the strap is interpreted to be part of the hull.

What if I made a strap that continued down the back of the transom and then flared out at the water line to effectively extend the water line? I could argue that it was part of the footstrap design, if footstraps were excluded from the 18' length rule...


The F18 rules exclude anything that isn't specifically listed. Footstraps are specifically listed as optional items. At the point a footstrap stopped being a footstrap or started performing another function, by definition, it has become something else. If that "something else" isn't explicitly listed in the rules, then it is clearly excluded and therefore illegal.

The a-cat rules are a lot more basic and generic (used to fit on one sheet of paper and be easily legible) leaving a lot of loop holes open (arguably for the sake of development). The situation is a good bit different for the F18 class.


Jake Kohl
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: srm] #272005
04/30/14 11:44 AM
04/30/14 11:44 AM
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having your back foot in the strap serves to help limit your forward motion when the boat drives through waves, etc.

A free front foot allows a wider range of foot placement for various sail trim, pointing angle, water conditions.. Such as a wider stance for chop/swell than flat water...


Jay

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272007
04/30/14 11:55 AM
04/30/14 11:55 AM
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The straps on a cat and on a windsurfboard serve two completely different purposes:

On a windsurfboard and kiting board the straps are used to control your board (by you!!!) when the conditions make that necessary.
On a cat the strap is used to maintain your balance when the wire and/or the cat is pulling you or trying to sweep you off. No way you can control the hulls by your feet in straps.

Last edited by northsea junkie; 04/30/14 12:02 PM.

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"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #272009
04/30/14 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by brucat
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
I can confirm what Pepin said. At the A-class worlds last Feb. It was determined that mounting the footstrap with the tab on the rear off the hull constituted part of the hull length and violated the class rule regarding hull length. Everyone had to move their strap forward to comply with the class rules. Rudders and their hardware are excluded, provided the leading edge of the rudder is no more than 3" of the transom. If the leading edge of the rudder is more than 3" of the transom, then the rudder is considered part of the hull measure meant, and the trailing edge is used to determine the 18' max hull length.


Mike's Spot on.


Are you agreeing with the interpretation/ decision, or just the narrative of what happened?

Mike


My statement was to the narrative, but I agree with the interpretation also. See Mike Krantz's(#27199) above post. Sailing H-16s you might think what he says above sounds ludicrous, but A catters will do ANYTHING to get an edge,no matter how small, hence the cassettes to make L foils work. That sounded ludicrous until a couple of guys did it.


If you read my prior post, you'd see that I am very open-minded about this matter (the process, not the rule). If this is how the class wants to operate, that's perfectly acceptable. Other folks here (not H16 sailors, BTW) seemed to disagree with the call. I simply provided info on how this should be handled if there was a lingering dispute.

It would probably help you to stop dismissing everything I say as a liberal H16 sailor who couldn't possibly understand anything. The Hobie class rules have a "no-loophole" clause, which I personally take more seriously than others I have observed. For example, running trap shock lines through a grommet in the tramp wasn't specifically allowed, but was being done locally before the factory started building them that way. To me, it wasn't spelled out and shouldn't have been done without a rule change; others thought it was no big deal because it didn't make the boat faster. They said it was done to keep the traps separated, therefore making maneuvers easier. My point was, if there wasn't an advantage, why were all the top guys doing it? Again, I have no problem with a rule change, but it needs to be done properly, and until it is, loopholes should be treated as the enemy.

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272013
04/30/14 01:07 PM
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Wait, did you just say Hobie 16s are the enemy? or you're the enemy?.... sorry, long day at the office, must not be seeing well


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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: David Ingram] #272014
04/30/14 01:30 PM
04/30/14 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever

Riccardi had a few awhile back, so I would assume Jill WAS getting them. If you find a source let me know ,I need a pair or two also.


I sent Bret an email asking if he had any if he doesn't I'll see what CatHouse has.


Bret's wife is running the Magic Marine business and she has the footstraps and is sending me a pair. Thanks for the info everyone.


David Ingram
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Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: brucat] #272015
04/30/14 01:31 PM
04/30/14 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by brucat




If you read my prior post, you'd see that I am very open-minded about this matter (the process, not the rule). If this is how the class wants to operate, that's perfectly acceptable. Other folks here (not H16 sailors, BTW) seemed to disagree with the call. I simply provided info on how this should be handled if there was a lingering dispute.

It would probably help you to stop dismissing everything I say as a liberal H16 sailor who couldn't possibly understand anything. The Hobie class rules have a "no-loophole" clause, which I personally take more seriously than others I have observed. For example, running trap shock lines through a grommet in the tramp wasn't specifically allowed, but was being done locally before the factory started building them that way. To me, it wasn't spelled out and shouldn't have been done without a rule change; others thought it was no big deal because it didn't make the boat faster. They said it was done to keep the traps separated, therefore making maneuvers easier. My point was, if there wasn't an advantage, why were all the top guys doing it? Again, I have no problem with a rule change, but it needs to be done properly, and until it is, loopholes should be treated as the enemy.

Mike


We're a bit sensitive aren't we. Don't know where you got liberal from and are you not an H-16 sailor( that's the only class you refer to from personal experience) which is a strict Single manufacturer one design and NOT a development class, therefore you do not have to deal with such issues as rather the rudders count as hull length if they are outside of a 3" arc, or rather the curve of your foils extend beyond a .75 meter measurement from the centerline. You do not have to try to read attacks into all of my posts, if I attack you it will be abundantly clear. Jeeeze, take a Midol.
p.s. I sail/own a Hobie 16 and an F-18 also, so I'm fully aware of how different class rules operate.


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The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: Dazz] #272017
04/30/14 02:05 PM
04/30/14 02:05 PM
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Just observing patterns. Don't worry, I usually triple up on the Midol before reading your stuff.

Mike

Re: footstraps can hurt! [Re: mikekrantz] #272018
04/30/14 02:13 PM
04/30/14 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mikekrantz
Doesn't matte to me, as long as it is applied the same to everyone, everywhere.

The 18' rule only has an exclusion for the rudder assembly, so therefore the strap is interpreted to be part of the hull.

What if I made a strap that continued down the back of the transom and then flared out at the water line to effectively extend the water line? I could argue that it was part of the footstrap design, if footstraps were excluded from the 18' length rule...


Mike,

I'm not sure if you were talking about F18 rules, but your post gave me pause. I went back and reviewed them and nowhere does it say the hull measurement should exclude the rudder fittings (or anything else). The reference drawing has a hull, rudder stock, some sort of casting and a tiller arm and indicates the measurement is from a vertical plane tangent to the bow to the furthest aft point on the hull. There are no rudder pintles/gugeons (or obviously, footstraps) referenced on the drawing either - page 31.

The only text that references the hull measurement is as follows:
Quote
D.6 ASSEMBLED HULLS
D.6.1 CONSTRUCTION
(a) The hulls shall be joined rigidly by a front beam and a rear beam.
(b) Non slip surfaces, built in or applied to the hulls, are allowed.
D.6.2 DIMENSIONS
(a) The maximum hull length shall be 5.52 m.
(b) The maximum boat beam shall be 2.60 m.
(c) The boat centre plane is the vertical longitudinal plane of the boat that
passes through the centre point of the front and rear beams.



http://usf18.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/f18classrules20130101.pdf

If they are indeed making disqualifications (or requiring modifications) on it, the issue should be reviewed and a rules clarification issued.


Jake Kohl
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