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why is this fast? #272735
05/24/14 12:05 AM
05/24/14 12:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Once again... I ask... Why is this fast? Every event they publish a new photo of a N17 jumping out of the water... Great visual... but... racers probably want to know.... WHY IS THIS FAST?.... and.... How was the landing?..

My answer... It's not fast! but the N17 is half baked... so the best of the world... make do.... Its the same for everyone!

What's your answer?

[Linked Image]


crac.sailregattas.com
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Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272736
05/24/14 05:35 AM
05/24/14 05:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


What's your answer?



another crew learning to tame the beast wink


Again I ask you......

if they are so "bad" then why in God's name isn't there a photo of EVERY crew doing this ???

or are the photographers only snapping pics of the crews that haven't as yet adjusted to the N17 ???




N17..... just another step down the evolutionary road
smile


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272739
05/24/14 08:26 AM
05/24/14 08:26 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Mark,

Have you sailed on one before?

JC says that it is his most favorite boat to sail. Its challenging and rewarding.

Again Mark how many regattas have you sailed the boat?

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272741
05/24/14 09:12 AM
05/24/14 09:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Victoria Australia
OMG ..... shocked

[Linked Image]

& we should have banned these things years ago.....

[Linked Image]

wink


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272742
05/24/14 09:56 AM
05/24/14 09:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
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pgp Offline
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IIRC, the shot of the H14 has the man himself on the tiller.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272743
05/24/14 05:31 PM
05/24/14 05:31 PM
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brucat Offline
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The boat was selected by the Olympic sailors who sailed them during the equipment trials. I'm sure you have a conspiracy theory all locked and loaded for that response, but I really don't see the world ending over this...

Mike

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272744
05/24/14 06:03 PM
05/24/14 06:03 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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The way I understand it is that on the N17 when you make a mistake you jump loosing a few boat lengths as opposed to pitchpoling, I haven't seen many shots of a pitchpole. I think the whole concept is fantastic and I will probably have one down the track


Jeff Southall
Current boats
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Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
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Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272747
05/24/14 06:15 PM
05/24/14 06:15 PM

S
Scarecrow
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Scarecrow
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S



There is a great quote in the French training de-brief here here about at what stage the crew has to just jump clear.

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272754
05/24/14 11:49 PM
05/24/14 11:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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maui
no, it isn't fast to luff the sails, but it is slow if you tip over.
scarecrow, thanks for the link. That channel has all kinds of informative videos. The one that followed the nacra vid told all about the 18 skiff worlds and lead into the aussie challenge for the AC.
As for jumping off the boat; is that even true? i have always told my crew to hold on and don't get separated from the boat.

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272755
05/25/14 01:09 AM
05/25/14 01:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
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Last edited by F-18 5150; 05/25/14 01:11 AM.

Richard Vilvens
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Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272756
05/25/14 03:11 AM
05/25/14 03:11 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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How about the courage of those sailors, all the other classes didn't race and they were trying to pull the spins out. It gets my heart rate up watching the vid and makes me want one even more. I have had to jump as far as I can to leeward a couple of times in big wind because the wind on the tramp pushes the boat so fast that I have smacked my head a couple of times coming up. I don't think I would bother jumping if it was going over backwards because I think that would be pretty slow anyway


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272765
05/25/14 08:28 AM
05/25/14 08:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,046
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I don't understand why they want to go 'half assed' when it comes to foiling. If they want to do it, why not just pick a full on foiling cat and do it right? Is the Nacra 17 that much cheaper than a Flying Phantom?

As if money were the deciding factor in any Olympic racing class...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5doBIv3TVbA


Blade F16
#777
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272766
05/25/14 09:32 AM
05/25/14 09:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
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NacramanUK Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Once again... I ask... Why is this fast? Every event they publish a new photo of a N17 jumping out of the water... Great visual... but... racers probably want to know.... WHY IS THIS FAST?.... and.... How was the landing?..

My answer... It's not fast! but the N17 is half baked... so the best of the world... make do.... Its the same for everyone!

What's your answer?

[Linked Image]


Hi Mark,
I strongly advice you to chat with the teams who sail the 17 (rather than basing your opinion on press photos) when it comes to the speed, performance and excitement of the 17.....it is a real test of sailing skills and fitness.......better still get someone to take you out on one.....I guarantee you will understand then!

Last edited by NacramanUK; 05/25/14 09:43 AM.
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Timbo] #272767
05/25/14 09:42 AM
05/25/14 09:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
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NacramanUK Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I don't understand why they want to go 'half assed' when it comes to foiling. If they want to do it, why not just pick a full on foiling cat and do it right? Is the Nacra 17 that much cheaper than a Flying Phantom?

As if money were the deciding factor in any Olympic racing class...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5doBIv3TVbA


Hi Timbo,
Worth you while checking out the selection of 2016 equipment and what the choices were and how the evaluation process went (one of the criteria was cost)......the FP was supposed to be at the trials but wasn't ready....given we are now 18 months into the olympic 4 year cycle and still there is no 3 sail production catamaran suitable for a mixed team being delivered (the F20 C FCS would most definitely not be suitable for a mixed team of between 120kg and 140 kg!) I am not sure what your suggestion would be instead of the 17?

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272769
05/25/14 10:13 AM
05/25/14 10:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
well, in a nutshell, if all racing in the entire world was COMPLETELY about speed nobody would be racing sailboats anyway.

It's also the same reason I get enjoyment out of racing a 6 knot **** box J22 - it's definitely NOT about speed. It's about challenge. It's about using your skill and body to beat the other guy who also happens to be racing the same craft with the same identical limitations.

No, popping wheelies isn't the fastest way to get around the race course...clearly. But given the fact that it's so wildly photographed, that alone means that people see it as an exciting aspect of the N17 - photographers capture it and people like to see it...all of that is good for the sport, good for multihulls, and good for the N17.


Jake Kohl
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272773
05/25/14 10:57 AM
05/25/14 10:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Annapolis, MD
Jake, Why do you think it is good for the sport?

When you see gran prix skiers... going like hell.... you say... wow... that is some Hill and those guys are great skiers for doing that.... It is never about the skis. The universe of skiers grows as skiers take on the challenge of increasingly bigger hills.. It's about the hill and the skill to dominate it.

When you see other boats..... they are sailing in a seaman link way... Boats don't routinely pop wheelies! I think the public says... wow... look at that crazy boat.... those guys are intense. Sailing is now an extreme sport... That may be good for the 20 secs of TV time... but I don't see extreme sports growing in popularity... they remain small niches for the adrenalin junkie. Sailors look at those pics and say... That boat is just not right.. It should not do that time and time again... just for the benefit of sailing photographers and photo editors.. They ask... How is that fast... I thought the game was racing the other guys as fast as you can...


(I say... Fix the damn boat)

Nacraman, The old pros insisted that the Marstrom Tornado was the best two man cat package on the water... Easy to sail... a true challenge to sail well, a boat suitable for the olympics.. The Marstrom 20 raised the bar by cutting weight and updating the design for a Windward Leeward racer.... The N17 is the culmination of the fiasco that demanded mixed teams and not open.. and locked multihulls into mixed competition (not open) forever. This selection process is the result of compromise... The N17 looks like its harder to sail and obviously a true challenge to sail flat and well. Fix the boat so that its easy to sail, aka a good boat, and it will remain an Olympic boat... (Hell.... the venerable laser is the Olympic boat and so the point is... the equipment is not determinative)


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: why is this fast? [Re: NacramanUK] #272776
05/25/14 11:09 AM
05/25/14 11:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
I am not sure what your suggestion would be instead of the 17?


Any of the other boats in the trials would have worked... Its about the sailing.. not the boat. Those boats are mature and proven designs. The focus would be on the racing. That is what the olympics calls for.

The N17 was incomplete and not tested... The rig was a complete failure and replaced with something solid... the foil package is half done... the boat needs to evolve to a stable package.. T foil rudders and move the board positions) In short it needs to be fixed. The only time anyone should comment on the boat is when they are looking for the class name for the results sheet..

Today...the story remains... look at that crazy boat popping a wheelie. (again) Far too many regatta stories have a N17 wheelie photo!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272777
05/25/14 11:10 AM
05/25/14 11:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 186
wildtsail7 Offline
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Mark,the Tornado is gone, over, irrelevant. I would much rather have seen the Tornado come back because it's something I could have sailed with my current crew. But constantly looking back at that boat and time isn't going to help progressing what we have now which is a great multihull olympic class.
If you insist that open is the way to go you are irrelevant as well. Yes there have been some teams that have had a hard time with the mixed concept and others that were dissapointed. But how can you argue with the numbers and activity going on in this class? Personally I think it's great. Look at the caliber of sailors it's attracted from other classes that had no other option until now.
How can you use the word "fiasco"? And how can you say in good authority that it has "locked multihulls into mixed competition (not open) forever."?
The photo in question is of Frank Cammas... I'm pretty sure he knows what's fast.
Mark, you have no idea when this was, some of the 17 sailors do this for fun between and after races. That's why (like in this photo) there are rarely other boats around. I'm guessing there is only a marginal condition where boards all the way down double trapped downwind is an advantage.
Yes we've seen it happen in videos during racing. Maybe those teams need to get their boards up sooner which is not a fault of the boat.

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272778
05/25/14 11:47 AM
05/25/14 11:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
Far too many regatta stories have a 49er/18skiff wheelie photo!


Fixed it for you.

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272779
05/25/14 01:56 PM
05/25/14 01:56 PM
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Posts: 98
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NacramanUK Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


Nacraman, The old pros insisted that the Marstrom Tornado was the best two man cat package on the water... Easy to sail... a true challenge to sail well, a boat suitable for the olympics.. The Marstrom 20 raised the bar by cutting weight and updating the design for a Windward Leeward racer.... The N17 is the culmination of the fiasco that demanded mixed teams and not open.. and locked multihulls into mixed competition (not open) forever. This selection process is the result of compromise... The N17 looks like its harder to sail and obviously a true challenge to sail flat and well. Fix the boat so that its easy to sail, aka a good boat, and it will remain an Olympic boat... (Hell.... the venerable laser is the Olympic boat and so the point is... the equipment is not determinative)


No doubting the quality of the Tornado (I learnt to sail cats on a Tornado and it is the only boat that I own and I love it!)......but as you said it is a "two man cat package" and the olympic requirement for 2016 is a mixed team boat suited to that 120kg to 140kg weight range (and that rules the big T out).......the Marstrom 20 is/was a great boat, but really only one is now sailed in anger in Europe, and that is heavily modified with 12' beam, 3 sail rig, F20 C mast, curved raking boards (about to be converted to full foiling), t foil rudders and renamed as the Vampire (owned by a good friend of mine). The only Marstrom 20 original parts are the hulls and they have been heavily modified with replacement cases, etc....the rest of the European fleet have moved to F20 C's because it thrashes the standard Marstrom 20 (but thats a whole other story!)......now whether the mixed team criteria is a fiasco is something we could argue about till we are old and grey, it is how it is.......yes the 17 is a difficult boat to master without doubt and so it should be.....we are talking about top athletes at the top of their game.....you mentioned skying as an analogy to olympic sailing.....lets take a different analogy of the top end of motor car racing...F1 cars and Indy cars are a difficult test of driving skills that could be replaced with standard road cars that are "easy" to drive so drivers could concentrate their skills on tactics, etc......is that what we want?......if thats the case when applied to the sailing world we need to get rid of the 49er and the 49erfX as well as the 17!.....the selection of boats that are used as olympic equipment cover a broad range of sailing technique and skills....if you don't have the right skill to sail a 17 sail a laser, simple....

I still actively encourage you to speak to the US teams who sail the 17 at Olympic level about how they feel about the boat and strongly encourage you to go have a sail on a 17.....

Last edited by NacramanUK; 05/25/14 01:57 PM.
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