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Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272780
05/25/14 01:54 PM
05/25/14 01:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
N
NacramanUK Offline
journeyman
NacramanUK  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Quote
I am not sure what your suggestion would be instead of the 17?


Any of the other boats in the trials would have worked... Its about the sailing.. not the boat. Those boats are mature and proven designs. The focus would be on the racing. That is what the olympics calls for.

The N17 was incomplete and not tested... The rig was a complete failure and replaced with something solid... the foil package is half done... the boat needs to evolve to a stable package.. T foil rudders and move the board positions) In short it needs to be fixed. The only time anyone should comment on the boat is when they are looking for the class name for the results sheet..

Today...the story remains... look at that crazy boat popping a wheelie. (again) Far too many regatta stories have a N17 wheelie photo!


Hi Mark,
When the trial happened it really was between the Viper and the 17.......none of the other boats really came close to those two in terms of selection to fit the ISAF/IOC criteria......interestingly I had a long chat with one of the GB squad sailors who also happens to be part of the family who sell the Viper in the UK and he has a clear opinion that the the 17 was the right choice! (and he had previously been in the GB squad on the T prior to it being dropped from the Olympics!)....as for the 17 not being tested and its initial rig issues, we could say the same about the 49er......would you want the 49er dropped from the Olympics now......there is possibly an argument for t foil rudders although there is also a strong argument not to tame the 17 with the addition of the t foil rudders!.....why do the boards need to be moved???.......

Press photos of 17 wheelies isn't a strong argument to change things otherwise pitch poling 49ers and all those broaching monos should have been removed from international competition a long time ago.......

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: why is this fast? [Re: NacramanUK] #272781
05/25/14 02:49 PM
05/25/14 02:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
I agree that the selection came down to a Viper and the N17. They had different strengths and weakness per the ISAF specs. The choice was clearly for a bigger boat and ISAF accepted the risk that the boat was not quite done. The technical committee failed to get the job completed.

So you note.... Taming the N17 with T foils and suggest that choosing not to do so is reasonable... I think that it is as unreasonable as telling the A class sailors to just man up and not put T foils on their C foiled DNA's... just because the pitch pole factor is more challenging. YMMV.

Why move the boards.... because all of the A class designers do what Melvin did and put the boards where the math tells them to... then a year later... they move them forward. So... its just a hunch. YMMV.

So, the 49ner team did extensive changes in the first two years to get the boat basically right.... Nacra was forced to redesign the rig and they did that after the breakages.... For some reason... they did not refine the boat in the same manner and to the same degree as the 49ner... That is my point... it is half baked... I don't know... maybe the politics of it all made them stop refining the boat... ISAF gave them a year to get it working and ... by definition... it was done after a year. The ISAF technical committee had a lot riding on the wisdom of picking this design and their judgement that this was the right design and they believed Melvin's mumbo jumbo... ... ERGO... the world nods their head....the boat is right after a year... I am the kid yelling.. hey mom... the emperor has no clothes... To me it looks pretty silly and lame for the boat to be jumping out of the water after the best in the world have sailed it for two years.

In choosing a SMOD boat that was unproven... the onus was on the ISAF and NACRA to get it right...

Time will tell... if the boat stays the same for the next quad... You guys were right... and I will acknowledge the error in my judgment... If they change it... The question should be... what the hell took so long and who is accountable.

I think Nacra will insist on changes because you probably have a hard time selling this kind of boat to the public high performance market... For reference, look at the F18HT class... Indeed it is a challenging boat to keep the pointy end up in a breeze... You could also say... the boat has bad to terrible manners. YMMV... nevertheless... challenging to sail does not make it appropriate for the Olympics.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272782
05/25/14 04:06 PM
05/25/14 04:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Quote
The question should be... what the hell took so long and who is accountable.


Accountable?

I'm sorry, did I miss something here? Did someone die while sailing the N17? No? I didn't think so.

Accountable for what? Delivering a boat that all the sailors love, delivering a boat that is going to have great watchability on the olympic stage?

What axe are you grinding here Mark? Your usual nonsensical pontifications have some basis in legitimate criticism but this one seems to be "I don't like these pictures!"

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272783
05/25/14 09:09 PM
05/25/14 09:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 13
San Diego, CA
P
Pressure Drop Offline
stranger
Pressure Drop  Offline
stranger
P

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 13
San Diego, CA
Tornado > N17

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272784
05/25/14 11:57 PM
05/25/14 11:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
*yawn*

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272793
05/26/14 04:52 AM
05/26/14 04:52 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,381
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,381
Kingston SE South Australia
I don't think they could change much this far into the cycle, probably when the next Olympics come up there will be mods on the boat. As for the Tornado going and mixed teams coming in it's worth reminding everyone that was the blindside by the US 2 votes and NZ 1 vote, Olympic reps they said they were voting for cats and voted it out. Now I'm just glad we're back in the Olympics


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272794
05/26/14 04:54 AM
05/26/14 04:54 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Why should I care whether this is fast or not?

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272796
05/26/14 05:39 AM
05/26/14 05:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
Carpal Tunnel
pgp  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272802
05/26/14 10:54 AM
05/26/14 10:54 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Kennethsf Offline
member
Kennethsf  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Jake, Why do you think it is good for the sport?

When you see gran prix skiers... going like hell.... you say... wow... that is some Hill and those guys are great skiers for doing that.... It is never about the skis. The universe of skiers grows as skiers take on the challenge of increasingly bigger hills.. It's about the hill and the skill to dominate it.

When you see other boats..... they are sailing in a seaman link way... Boats don't routinely pop wheelies! I think the public says... wow... look at that crazy boat.... those guys are intense. Sailing is now an extreme sport... That may be good for the 20 secs of TV time... but I don't see extreme sports growing in popularity... they remain small niches for the adrenalin junkie. Sailors look at those pics and say... That boat is just not right.. It should not do that time and time again... just for the benefit of sailing photographers and photo editors.. They ask... How is that fast... I thought the game was racing the other guys as fast as you can...


(I say... Fix the damn boat)

Nacraman, The old pros insisted that the Marstrom Tornado was the best two man cat package on the water... Easy to sail... a true challenge to sail well, a boat suitable for the olympics.. The Marstrom 20 raised the bar by cutting weight and updating the design for a Windward Leeward racer.... The N17 is the culmination of the fiasco that demanded mixed teams and not open.. and locked multihulls into mixed competition (not open) forever. This selection process is the result of compromise... The N17 looks like its harder to sail and obviously a true challenge to sail flat and well. Fix the boat so that its easy to sail, aka a good boat, and it will remain an Olympic boat... (Hell.... the venerable laser is the Olympic boat and so the point is... the equipment is not determinative)


Sail the boat before giving unsupported statements that the boat is half baked--dodn't repeat your arguments- sail it-sail it first- [or talk to someone who did [btw I did and it is the most exciting boat I've sailed... ever...]

Last edited by Kennethsf; 05/26/14 11:00 AM.
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272805
05/26/14 05:16 PM
05/26/14 05:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
The old pros insisted that the Marstrom Tornado was the best two man cat package on the water...


Change the f'n record already. News Flash!!! You're never going to get out from behind the keyboard anyway and start training for the Olympics, so you shouldn't worry yourself with the new boat. Now go get yourself a new crossword puzzle book and get back to some real excitement.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272808
05/27/14 06:33 AM
05/27/14 06:33 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
veteran
TEAMVMG  Offline
veteran

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
Mark, I hope that you never - ever fly your hull above 300mm

.....because that's not fast and you shouldn't be out sailing if you do it

Ha look at my Avitar, that wasn't fast either


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272809
05/27/14 06:50 AM
05/27/14 06:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Maybe he secretly loves the boat and mixed discipline, and is just trying to see how much support they actually have? cool

Mike

Re: why is this fast? [Re: brucat] #272811
05/27/14 07:23 AM
05/27/14 07:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by brucat
Maybe he secretly loves the boat and mixed discipline, and is just trying to see how much support they actually have? cool

Mike


That would be a Schneider move.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: why is this fast? [Re: ThunderMuffin] #272812
05/27/14 08:11 AM
05/27/14 08:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
Far too many regatta stories have a 49er/18skiff wheelie photo!


Fixed it for you.


How many pitchpole photos do you see at big "regular beachcat" regattas?

Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 05/27/14 08:11 AM.

Jay

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272814
05/27/14 08:19 AM
05/27/14 08:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider


you probably have a hard time selling this kind of boat to the public high performance market...


That would be a good theoretical discussion on the size/scope/buying power of said "high performance market". I suspect many platforms might be hard to sell - foiling moth, 49er, FP.

Reasons may include the learning curve, entry cost, maintenance cost, small fleet size..

But perhaps this market segment (high performance) doesn't worry about those items that keep the platform out of the "public" realm?


Jay

Re: why is this fast? [Re: David Ingram] #272820
05/27/14 09:46 AM
05/27/14 09:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by brucat
Maybe he secretly loves the boat and mixed discipline, and is just trying to see how much support they actually have? cool

Mike


That would be a Schneider move.


+1 A quintessential devil's advocate. So much so, sometimes it's not even on purpose.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: why is this fast? [Re: Mark Schneider] #272822
05/27/14 05:39 PM
05/27/14 05:39 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5
P
peterk Offline
stranger
peterk  Offline
stranger
P

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 5
I'm new here, so please excuse my ignorance. Is this the half baked, poor performing boat we are talking about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAxamg7DY0&index=23&list=PLlSeaiLpRdgyk60vMFNQYenmXjzksQeRy

If so, I will take one if someone is looking to get rid of theirs smile This video is sick, and I am amazed how they are handling that boat in the swells. It seems to pop off, land perfectly flat and effortlessly.

Re: why is this fast? [Re: peterk] #272824
05/27/14 11:54 PM
05/27/14 11:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
N
northsea junkie Offline
addict
northsea junkie  Offline
addict
N

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 519
Petten Netherlands
+1


ronald
RAIDER-15 (homebuilt)

hey boy, what did you do over there, alone far out at sea?..
"huh....., that's the only place where I'm happy, sir.
Re: why is this fast? [Re: peterk] #272831
05/28/14 06:55 AM
05/28/14 06:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
old hand
Pirate  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
+2

smile


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: why is this fast? [Re: Pirate] #272832
05/28/14 07:01 AM
05/28/14 07:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
they do make it look easy, don't they?


Jay

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