Announcements
New Discussions
Question about tiller extension uv joint
by JeffS. 12/09/19 12:35 AM
2020, The Year of The Cat
by cyberspeed. 11/26/19 09:47 PM
F16 Effect Crew Weight Solo and 2 Up
by 11devil11. 11/21/19 07:30 AM
Supercat 17s closest competitor?
by Will_R. 11/19/19 11:01 AM
New England 100 2019: 30th Anniversary!!!
by Timbo. 11/18/19 02:45 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: northsea junkie] #273607
07/01/14 01:55 AM
07/01/14 01:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
My contention is that a $40,000 piece of carbon art that can be sailed off the beach with a dolly, where the conditions are mild is different than a beach cat. There are races like the 2 recent 300 mile races were the boats are driven right up on to the sand. That curved section of the main foils protruding from the bottom of the hull would be a problem in a hectic beach landing.
If the conditions at Texel were force 4-5 with a tough surfline, and on shore winds i think the landing would be tricky for one of these foilers. Even if you get through the landing, there is still the issue of sand getting in your fiddly bits.
Few owners of these high end cats would risk surf sailing.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: jollyrodgers] #273610
07/01/14 04:31 AM
07/01/14 04:31 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Remove the cost from the question as that is relative to income/budget and motivation.

Consider that any modern racing cat will not take kindly to a landing like it was the big red one (1st infantry division) going all in on Omaha beach.

Consider that catsailing is far more diverse than using beaches as base or surf sailing (I would prefer a sailboard for beach/surf sailing. Perhaps even a kiteboard if I knew how to run those things)

What is left is a practical issue on how to deploy/retrieve the boat from a beach or any club with a ramp. Beachweels have been pointed to and I find that reasonable.

I believe foiling have enough momentum carry over into the short term and long term catsailing future. Interesting times and really exciting to watch what these guys are doing. In 5 to 10 years perhaps even I can afford to have a toy like this.

Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: northsea junkie] #273613
07/01/14 06:13 AM
07/01/14 06:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
In the US, most of the distance races you have to start on the beach and you have to finish on the beach. Often times two or more boats will finish neck and neck with each other and requiring a beach dolly to land would simply not be safely possible in some of the surf here.

As for modern racing cats not taking kindly to being run up on the sand at full speed... Just last month we had a carbon 20, f18's, a marstrom 20 and a bunch of older nacre 20's running up the beach.. Seemed to fare just fine.

Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: ThunderMuffin] #273614
07/01/14 07:06 AM
07/01/14 07:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Undecided
In the US, most of the distance races you have to start on the beach and you have to finish on the beach. Often times two or more boats will finish neck and neck with each other and requiring a beach dolly to land would simply not be safely possible in some of the surf here.

As for modern racing cats not taking kindly to being run up on the sand at full speed... Just last month we had a carbon 20, f18's, a marstrom 20 and a bunch of older nacre 20's running up the beach.. Seemed to fare just fine.


Ehhhh...I say it could be done gently unless you've got gigantic surf. Rudders up, boards up, main sheeted in tight and centered (jib loose). Sit on the bows and back the boat in through the surf. It works and is a really mild way to get the boat on the beach safely. It's certainly not the fast way to hit the beach - but it would be pretty easy to beach a boat like that with control.

There's also usually some angle to the breeze on the beach. With the finish line in knee deep water, I did a Tybee without making any significant sliding on the sand (right after I refinished the entire boat). My bottoms finished looking like they did when we started...granted, that's not the fun way to land on the beach (like the first landing Mosley and I had where we sailed all the way up to the dune between two parked boats) - but it's possible.


Jake Kohl
Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: northsea junkie] #273615
07/01/14 07:30 AM
07/01/14 07:30 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Certainly rough beach landings is an issue for foiling cats. The double rudder setup was there for a reason I suppose. I dont think rough beach landings is the norm for cats like this though. Launching from clubs (Europe) or ramps (US) would be close to the norm in my experience? Add relatively shelted beaches and how big an issue is this really for the "cat foiling movement"?

I think the beach landings/starts is a relatively minor problem for foiling cats when looking at the big picture and the majority of events and catsailing. Seeing them launching at Texel and the surf there is enough proof for me that it is possible.


Looking forward to hearing what our friends in the Netherlands have to say on the topic. Myself I have only launched from relatively protected beaches and ramps.


Last edited by Rolf_Nilsen; 07/01/14 07:32 AM.
Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: northsea junkie] #273623
07/01/14 10:34 AM
07/01/14 10:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Foilers are line honors boats and only those that have the $$ to burn will play the foiling cat game. You heard it here first bitches!

Last edited by David Ingram; 07/01/14 10:34 AM.

David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: northsea junkie] #273706
07/04/14 06:32 AM
07/04/14 06:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
N
NacramanUK Offline
journeyman
NacramanUK  Offline
journeyman
N

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
Race report from Peter Vink.....

"Round Texel 2014 with the brand new Nacra F20 carbon FCS"

After months of development and hard work we finally received the new main foils on Tuesday afternoon before the Round Texel. The new foils where the last parts needed to complete the first official production model of the Nacra F20 Carbon VCS.

On Wednesday we decided to go to the Haringvliet which is a nice lake in the south of Holland to give us the hard needed training hours on this awesome machine. After one afternoon of sailing which started with a heart rate off 190 and finished with a relaxed crew, who could not get the smile of our faces, it was off to Texel the next day.†

†Unfortunately the wind was not strong enough to give us some more sailing hours on the boat. With the hours we had on the lake we were more than confident enough to sail her around Texel and go for line honours. The next morning we arrived on the beach under beautifully sailing conditions (10 to 12 knots with 1 meter waves). Below a report of the Round Texel race and how we experienced it.

Start to Lighthouse:

Our strategy was to start with clean air, just above the big group at the low end of the starting line. This all worked well with a good start and we had the boat immediately on her foils, sailing without spinnaker, blasting away from the rest of the boats. Edward and Mischa sailing the modified M20 just above us and Gurvan and Benjamin sailing the FP above the M20, all having a good start. I can't overestimate the fun and excitement of having these foiling boats around you.†

†Being in a learning curve to sail a boat like this in waves, we didnt have a constant boat speed in the beginning, which resulted in Xander and Stefan, sailing a standard Nacra F20 Carbon, managed to stay close. About one third of the run towards the first gate we found out that we had to lean in a bit more coming out of patches of wind. After this we were able to keep the speed constantly around 24 knots and our angle as lowest of the fleet, to extent quickly from Xander Pols and Stefan Dubbeldam just behind us. We lead the fleet at the first gate at the lighthouse with Xander and Stephan on our tale and the FP together with Eduard and Mischa just behind them.


Lighthouse to VC mark:

We extended our lead on the Nacra F20 carbon and the FP on the 5.2 NM reach to the VC mark. About 2 NM before the VC mark we slowed down to pull up our foils and rudders to sail the shallow waters around the VC mark. After a while, sailing in a slow mode we were overtaken by the Nacra F20 carbon and the FP.†

Xander and Stefan pulled up their foils just in front of us and also started to sail in a slow mode. We both sailed carefully through these shallow waters, keeping the boat to around 10-16 knots speed. The FP took a big risk by staying in full foiling mode, in not more than 1 meter deep water, to the VC mark leading the fleet at that time. Surprisingly, they managed to sail to the VC mark without hitting the ground. At the VC mark they needed to go upwind, the boat dropped down and hit the ground when sailing upwind. We quickly closed the gap between us and the FP and started our upwind leg, with Xander and Stefan leading the fleet, sailing together with the FP back to back sailing upwind with the rudders and foils up.


VC mark to MG-H mark:

After 1.5 NM we were in deep water again and put down our foils and rudders. We were extending from the FP in the upwind easily, for us this proved that our efforts to bring additional upwind speed and angle to the Nacra F20 proved to have worked well with the FCS system and design. After a while we didnít see them anymore.†

We now had a new learning curve, because this was the first time we actually sailed against the fastest production boat, the standard Nacra F20 carbon, in a 12 NM upwind leg. In the beginning the standard Nacra F20 carbons where clearly faster than us and Xander and Stephan extended their lead on us. Oscar and Alex, sailing an Nacra F20 carbon, coming from behind and overtook us as well. After about 3 NM we managed to have the same speed as the standard Nacra F20 carbons.†

At that time Sascha and Dennis, with their Nacra F20 carbon, where close to us, so we could use them as a benchmark to find a better sailing mode. After a while of battling with Sascha and Dennis we lowered the boards more and more whereupon we managed to pull away with better boat speed and angle in foiling mode and subsequently where able to reduce the lead of the 2 leading F20 carbons Oscar and Alex and Xander and Stefan .

Mischa and Eduard managed to come in front of us, by making a long run to the mainland, which paid off really well for them. They were just in front of us at mark MG-H at the far south end of the island.

MG-H mark to Finish:

Here we had a reach on the south side of the island which slowly went over in a downwind of 6 NM. The first 3 NM was full reaching with super stable flight.†

This was the most amazing experience we ever had. We didnít touch the water at all and where incredibly fast compared to all boats around us. Clearly we were getting better and better sailing this awesome machine. Going so much faster and fly above the water is a mind-blowing experience. The last 3 NM was downwind in waves, where we also found a much better mode than just after the start of the race. Stable surfing the waves, we extended our lead to the finish where we took the line honours of the 2014 Round Texel.

For Mischa de Munck and me it was the coolest sailing experience we ever had. It was also super successful for Nacra and Performance Sails. The Nacra F20 carbon FCS had line honours, the next 2 boats in were Nacra F20 carbons. We had the first 3 overall prices, the first 3 in the formula 18 and the first 2 in the formula 16. Not bad in such a big event.

Sailing around the island of Texel is a great experience. Not only it is great sailing, this event is also well organized with a laid back beach style atmosphere. Again, they did a great job organizing this event smoothly, so a big thanks for the sponsors and all the people behind the Round Texel. It is absolutely a donít miss event. So set your start watches for 6th of June 2015.
We have tried to make a boat which is incredibly fast and profoundly easy to sail. We are very excited having felt that we have achieved that goal using the full technological potential available in the sport of sailing."

Peter Vink

*Race report sent to me by Peter Vink, but first posted as part of an article at catsailingnews.com

Last edited by NacramanUK; 07/04/14 07:33 AM.
Re: race monster in Texel cat race [Re: northsea junkie] #273714
07/04/14 07:29 PM
07/04/14 07:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Quote
or ramps (US) would be close to the norm in my experience?


I can't think of a single venue where we didn't launch off of a beach of some sort. Even when we had a ramp, its just easier to use the beach.

At Lake Lanier we had a ramp we'd back the boat down on the trailer, but it would be only with the mast up. We'd tie a line to it and drag it around a jetty to where the beach was, drag it up and keep rigging it on the beat.

Kelly Park is just one big beach. The only time I can think that we ramp launched our cats is at Spring Fever and nobody will tell you that that situation was ideal... (at least I don't think they would)

Of course this is all anecdotal... beaches are just easier to launch from IMO.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (Cholley12), 254 guests, and 264 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Nickv, jgsanchez, Tressa, EvoOwner, bigbird
7984 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Timbo 2
Dermot 2
JeffS 1
Will_R 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,371
Posts266,960
Members7,984
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1