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Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274495
08/08/14 06:43 AM
08/08/14 06:43 AM
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Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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and the mains follow suit.... (offcuts layin on the shed floor)

[Linked Image]

Rippin the main is easy work, takes me about the same time to rip the 2 main as it does to rip one foredeck, circular saw versus router and the winner is ....
pass me the saw any day
wink


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274496
08/08/14 06:52 AM
08/08/14 06:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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and the uglies are soon exposed.....

[Linked Image]

yep that's car bog that's been used to "fix" the foam
sick
[Linked Image]

And lets not forget the Lake Bolac Easter Regatta damage....
from the inside with 1 foam removed for a better look

[Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274523
08/08/14 03:53 PM
08/08/14 03:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
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Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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4 bits of foam from the shroud plate to the bow..... overkill

the first job is to delete them and the gallon of glue that was holding them in place, one foam will be put back in when the time comes
wink
I spy with my little eye ........ mechano laugh

[Linked Image]

at this stage the wheelie-bin (in shot @ the bow) is almost full of unwanted rubbish we've dug out of the hulls and includes all the remains of the fore and rear deck be it as shavings or small bits of ply. The remains of the mains are still laying on the shed floor and will take a trip to landfill~land next bin run
wink


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274524
08/08/14 04:04 PM
08/08/14 04:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
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Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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Stringers are out and the foams are about to follow

[Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274525
08/08/14 04:15 PM
08/08/14 04:15 PM
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Victoria Australia
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every now and them I get a bit bored with the repetition of some of the destruction and I tend to re-focus on a specific area until I'm happy with what I'm seeing. smile

One of the several areas that need extra attention has been worrying me a bit, the Bolac Hole.... so for a spell I worked on it just to satisfy my concerns.
With the damaged bits cut away it doesn't look so bad but there's another issue that's beginning to rear its ugly head and this problem is throughout the boat and undoutably will cause me grief in the not to distant future......

The hulls are damp, and there's bits I can actually squeeze and draw moisture from, drying this old girl out is going to be hard but its got to happen somehow.... resin and wet plywood don't stick together well
frown

[Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274528
08/08/14 05:32 PM
08/08/14 05:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 88
M
Matthew Dawson Offline
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Great stuff Kingy!

I reckon you are going to start a revolution ... of people finding the courage to have a go at fixing up old boats.

I hope so!
smile



Currently between boats
Previously …
Cobra 570
Cobra 581
Mosquito 126
Arafura Cadet 738
Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274529
08/08/14 05:36 PM
08/08/14 05:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
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front beam plates.....
a layer of ply on either side of the foam, so one layer of ply makes the bin

[Linked Image]

and then the foam is removed too.....
as is the ply hull doubler and the 16x16 meranti stiffener wink
slowly clearing out all the unwanted weight

[Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274530
08/08/14 05:41 PM
08/08/14 05:41 PM
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Car bog is used to glue foams in some cases and make a curve so you can glass over a smooth corner as tight corners glass won't stick, and we all know that some resigns do melt the foam

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Matthew Dawson] #274531
08/08/14 05:42 PM
08/08/14 05:42 PM
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Victoria Australia
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Originally Posted by Matthew Dawson
Great stuff Kingy!

I reckon you are going to start a revolution ... of people finding the courage to have a go at fixing up old boats.

I hope so!
smile



if nothing else it will help people realise that it IS possible to do this stuff and that its far easier than you'd think.

The 'mantra' with Scorpian is to get the weight out, everything that's over-built is going and wont be put back in, we'll be replacing out-dated build designs with better ones and with lighter materials and yet not only maintain the strength but add it in ONLY where it's needed.


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Matt_Stone] #274532
08/08/14 05:58 PM
08/08/14 05:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
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Victoria Australia
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Originally Posted by Matt_Stone
Car bog is used to glue foams in some cases and make a curve so you can glass over a smooth corner as tight corners glass won't stick, and we all know that some resigns do melt the foam


Biggest problem with car bog is it's ability to soak up and hold water - not really a great thing on the inside of a boat !!!
That moistness is often against the raw ply for long periods, remember Twice Shy's holes ? , they were from moist bog that was used to glue in the foams.
sure it an easy way of building a boat but the long term damage will cause problems eventualy


I guess it comes down to what people think the 'life expectancy' of a mozzie should be.... 10 years, 20 years, 40 years ???? and how long will the full carbon fibre boats hold up in comparision ?
I have carbon bits here that are less than 5 years old and are here for repair from sun damage, will a full carbon boat last 5 years let alone 40 years ???


With the repairs and mods I'm doing I think these old ply girls will outlive their more modern carbon copies by a long way

smile


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274533
08/08/14 06:03 PM
08/08/14 06:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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removal of those useless support tabs in the rear compartment

just the resin base left....

[Linked Image]

and now its clean smile

[Linked Image]


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274541
08/09/14 03:32 AM
08/09/14 03:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 76
Qld
Dave M Offline
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Qld
Great work there Kingy.
This is most definitely an inspiring forum post for others.

You probably already know this so for general knowledge epoxy resin is the best for ply boats mixed with micro balloons gives a paste stronger than bog and better bonding as well.

I used this myself and it is some pretty hard stuff if left for a week or more if you happen to want to sand it.


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274542
08/09/14 03:36 AM
08/09/14 03:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
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Qld
Dave M Offline
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I just thought of something else. There are a pair of Carter hulls hanging up in my shed that will get the makeover at some point. they have the same gusset in the rear section as well.

The sail number is somewhere in the 1400s'. I'll check what the numbers is in the daylight.


David Madden 1724
Brisbane Valley Sailing Club
Mossies are still alive in Qld.
Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Dave M] #274545
08/09/14 07:27 AM
08/09/14 07:27 AM
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Victoria Australia
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The gussets are a good idea but totally in the wrong spot, had they have been fitted where they offered additional support then maybe I'd have been inclined to have left them in place, all be it with a modification to reduce the weight

A point that's ~midway between the transom and the rear beam mount would have provided excellent support for both the hull side as well as supporting the rear deck specifically around the hatch hole....

As it is I'll fit 2 stringers as I've done in the past as I know this works and has a minimal weight effect in comparision to the ply plates, the biggest advantage with the plates is the hull side support that I don't get when using stringers....



Its the weight factor that kills these old girls and not a lack of strength, if anything the older boats are way over-built in many areas..... but at the time they were considered light as that's what they knew and had to play with.

The fact remains that a mozzie hull can only be pushed through the water at a given maximum speed, you simply cant make it go any faster than the shape and drag of the water will allow it to go, even if a hull was made of concrete and the hull was placed at the same water line as a carbon hull it would be as resistant in the water as the carbon hull.....



The heavier old girls have 2 distinct disadvantages .....

1/
They sit a tad lower in the water so they have more wetted surface area and hence more drag..... more drag means slower boat

2/
they don't accelerate as fast as a light-weight boat, it takes a lot more power to accelerate a heavier object, and seeing were limited to the "power supply" by a set sail size were sort of screwed against a light boat..... every tack may cost us say a boat length due simply to the slower acceleration, do a dozen odd tacks and your suddenly a dozen odd boat lengths behind



clean out every dribble and excess bit of resin.....
trim down oversized structure components.....
remove any over repaired patches and repair with lightweight product....
remove years of paint and debris build up...
only add weight if there is NO other option..
fit light-weight decks.

Twice Shy ended up 15kilos lighter than she was when I started, & all I did was to follow those simple guidelines, .... with what I've learnt so far I could maybe get another half a KG out of her with a bit of a fight.....

My ultimate challenge would be to get an old ply hull down to minimal weight, and personally I believe I could get very very close to it, the hard part is maintaining strength..... I can get the weight down but I'd be too scared to sail it in a breeze over 10knots.....
I'm still working on this idea and one day I hope to have a crack at it...... probably the reason I have a pair of old hulls sitting here

wink





Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274556
08/09/14 03:58 PM
08/09/14 03:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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Old repairs are slowly being removed

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

once the basic material I cut away I'll sand the remainder back flush for a neat clean finish..

wink


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274557
08/09/14 04:40 PM
08/09/14 04:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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there are a few repairs that I just cant nut out as to why ....

[Linked Image]


The debris found in the hulls was quite a large amount, years and years of junk making its way in there had to build up somewhere.
The biggest issue is the size of the draining holes in the foams and in the ply subframes, often these are small in size and lets face it they really only need to flow a few dribbles of water that 'may' get into a "perfect set of hulls", but over the years the amount of water that seeps in increases to that cup or 3 worth of water.....
Any small bits of debris are now easily washed further out of reach and out of sight and slowly over the years builds up against the foams or hooked up on glass shards left exposed from the original chine tape.

In Scorpian I've removed around a kilo of debris from each hull, mostly its sawdust and shards of busted ply from damaged areas that have been repaired, then there's the odd washer or nut that's been dropped, and the remainder is a mix of a variety of things......
In Shy I removed a birds net, and several kids toys like plastic rings..leggo..and matchbox cars shocked
Inside Scorpian was a large amount the usual sawdust from repairs, what was probably grass clippings, 3 pencils and 2 biros, an empty chip packet, and a small plastic bottle with the remnants of perhaps milk in it....

The small drainage holes just don't cope with bigger objects that well as it is but as you can see in the pics showing all of the ply subframes, the resin and glass tape has been run past the hole to even further restrict the flow.
These will be cleaned up and a small increase is size will also help
smile


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274558
08/09/14 04:47 PM
08/09/14 04:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
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both inwhales will be replaced....

no rocket science here as to why sick

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

they are absolutely stuffed, I counted 40 holes in the small area adjacent to the case slots alone, these were filled with the usual rubbish but never really sealed up well enough. The result being water has got in and stayed there to the point where I could squeeze the worst spots and actually get droplets of water to drip out....

Moisture in this old girl is going to be a challenge to dry out before the glassing can begin
frown


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274559
08/09/14 06:17 PM
08/09/14 06:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 76
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Got Wood Offline
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Posts: 76
While we can all agree the repairs on Al's boat are very dodgy and theres no doubt he will end up with a lighter boat as a result of doing it cleaner and neater.

Those 'useless tabs supports' are there for a reason and having them in more than one boat also says they serve a purpose.

Next time you sail sloop in 20 knots on a nice bearly in control reach look down as where your foot and your weight is centred. I think you'll find that spot is there and that foot is yours...

Last edited by Got Wood; 08/09/14 06:18 PM.

Taipan AUS329 'Got Wood'
Mosquito 752 'Sticky Finger'
HARDWOOD RACING TEAM
Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Pirate] #274563
08/10/14 03:43 AM
08/10/14 03:43 AM

T
thricebitten
Unregistered
thricebitten
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted by PIRATE
I guess it comes down to what people think the 'life expectancy' of a mozzie should be.... 10 years, 20 years, 40 years ???? and how long will the full carbon fibre boats hold up in comparision ?
I have carbon bits here that are less than 5 years old and are here for repair from sun damage, will a full carbon boat last 5 years let alone 40 years ???


With the repairs and mods I'm doing I think these old ply girls will outlive their more modern carbon copies by a long way

smile


Hey Kingy,

Love the enthusiasm for Timber Boats, most of us have had at least one and loved them. cool

But don't put other build types down to do it frown , every one of 7 (I think) Faye built Carbon/Kevlar foam sandwich Mossies some of which are approaching 20 years old are still going strong, even after very major damage to some of them. And the number of over 20 year old Boyer kevlar foam sandwich boats still going I couldn't even hazard a guess at, but there are plenty and many of them still minimum weight. whistle

Re: 1101........ Scorpian's rebuild [Re: Got Wood] #274574
08/11/14 02:21 AM
08/11/14 02:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline OP
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Victoria Australia
Without doubt the tab supports are there for a very good reason. specifically the one you've suggested, but if that's the only use they serve its a bit of overkill in my opinion and with a small amount of movement further towards the transom they would have been a far more sensible item to leave in, this way they could have doubled as a hull stiffener aswell as a deck stiffener specifically around the hatch hole.

Shy had these aswell and they went long ago, but I didn't just leave it as a bare unsupported hull side either, I added a piece of 40gsm mat to the area just so my boof foot doesn't find its way through the hull on that screaming broard reach

Al also has a foot strap in that area so it will need to be bulked up anyway for the strap fixing aswell as the load from that misplaced hoof !
As to how that happens at this stage is up to Phill because he'll be the one re-fitting the foot strap once the decks are done.

grin


Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

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