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Impact! #274983
08/26/14 07:33 AM
08/26/14 07:33 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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It's match racing on monodulls...but have at it. Rules discussion:



Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #274987
08/26/14 08:34 AM
08/26/14 08:34 AM
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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so the black boat appeared to throw a fake tack and caught the yellow boat off-guard, drawing the penalty?


Jay

Re: Impact! [Re: waterbug_wpb] #274988
08/26/14 09:13 AM
08/26/14 09:13 AM
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Jake Offline OP
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this drone footage is pretty neat. Check this start out. Aggressive.



Jake Kohl
Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #274989
08/26/14 09:49 AM
08/26/14 09:49 AM
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David Ingram Offline
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Sorry Jake I can't appreciate and respect the skills of the skippers and crews and the clear talent on both teams because they chose to sail small slow monohulls.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #274990
08/26/14 09:58 AM
08/26/14 09:58 AM
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Match racing in Mono's will never catch on.

Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #274991
08/26/14 10:06 AM
08/26/14 10:06 AM
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Orlando, FL
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Originally Posted by Jake
It's match racing on monodulls...but have at it. Rules discussion:



I'll give it a go.

Both boats appear to begin tacking at same time (not sure about whether Starboard boat attempts "fake tack").

Yellow Port sees Starboard tacking and maintains port tack.

Starboard dismisses tacking and sails back onto starboard tack AND below proper course.

Yellow surprised by this move tries to sail astern of Starboard.

Collision occurs.


Me think Starboard violated

Rule 13 (while tacking as she went head to wind--sails luffing at 0:12 -- and therefore must stay clear of other boats)

Rule 16.1 (When a right-of-way boat changes course she shall give the other room to keep clear

Rule 16.2 (...port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear).


USA 777
Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #274992
08/26/14 10:07 AM
08/26/14 10:07 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Bear in mind that these are match racing videos, not fleet racing. Therefore, the rules and their application are a bit different.

In the first video, I think the outcome is going to hinge on whether or not the umpires felt that Yellow did all she reasonably could have to avoid contact (she pauses momentarily before turning down). If not, then Yellow breaks rule 10. If so, then Blue (with the black sail) breaks rule 16. I see that Yellow is already carrying a penalty, so that's either going to be cancelled or compounded.

I saw two protests in the second video. The first was green-flagged (no penalty) by the umpires. The second was a penalty for Blue. Throughout the entire pre-start, though, Yellow (with the red sail) totally controlled the other boat.

Just my observations,
Eric

Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #274993
08/26/14 10:24 AM
08/26/14 10:24 AM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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In my opinion this is a clear case where a team is using the rules as sword and deliberately set up yellow to draw a foul.

Yellow was reaching down to pass astern and when black did the fake tack yellow went back to close hauled (not tacking) to get on the hip of black after black completed their tack. When black went back to starboard close hauled (fake tack) yellow was still a half boat length away. In my opinion yellow still had time to crash tack but was surprised by the black move and tried to duck instead plus they clearly wanted the right and didn't want be controlled by black if they tacked to starboard. I'd really like to know if black was successful drawing the foul or not.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Impact! [Re: David Ingram] #274995
08/26/14 11:48 AM
08/26/14 11:48 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
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Black (Gilmour) was penalized in that altercation and lost to yellow (Steel).


Jake Kohl
Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #274996
08/26/14 11:49 AM
08/26/14 11:49 AM
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Jake
this drone footage is pretty neat. Check this start out. Aggressive.


Man, that red boat worked them like a prom date. How many fouls do you count on that?


Jay

Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275002
08/26/14 05:14 PM
08/26/14 05:14 PM
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Kingston SE South Australia
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Penalising black is what you would expect from dinghy racing, if Black made no attempt to give yellow room and sailed their course black would have won the protest.
Looks like black went up and gave yellow plenty of room to stop or go below, yellow sailing up but not tacking and then proceding forward meant they were forcing black to tack or collide both penalties to yellow.


Jeff Southall
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Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275005
08/27/14 07:19 AM
08/27/14 07:19 AM
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That move may have worked in light air, but with the speeds of the boats, it's hard to fault yellow, although I didn't see much of an attempt to change course. Hindsight being 20/50 and all...

Mike

Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275010
08/27/14 10:07 AM
08/27/14 10:07 AM
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Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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Match racing monslugs is all about drawing a foul to win. Match racing cats(AC boats) was more about boat speed and tactics, not that BS rule play crap seen here.


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: Impact! [Re: dave mosley] #275011
08/27/14 10:16 AM
08/27/14 10:16 AM
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Atlanta, GA
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Originally Posted by dave mosley
Match racing monslugs is all about drawing a foul to win. Match racing cats(AC boats) was more about boat speed and tactics, not that BS rule play crap seen here.


I agree. Not that I race cats much, but I have no interest in this kind of racing. It seems too much like driving in Atlanta!


Kent
1988 H16
Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275012
08/27/14 12:40 PM
08/27/14 12:40 PM
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brucat Offline
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I guess that's why "they" say you can't match race multihulls (as Gary Jobson reminded us every time his mike was on during the ACWS, and then again at the AC events in San Fran). True match race aficionados love the tight, knife-fight style of racing to draw a foul. It's definitely not for everyone.

Mike

Re: Impact! [Re: dave mosley] #275013
08/27/14 01:00 PM
08/27/14 01:00 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by dave mosley
Match racing monslugs is all about drawing a foul to win. Match racing cats(AC boats) was more about boat speed and tactics, not that BS rule play crap seen here.


No Dave that is not what monohull racing is all about and I'm sure you know that. Match racing with mulithulls is in its infancy and if multihull match racing continues to mature you can bet your bottom dollar that using the rules as weapon can and will be used as a tactic to win, they will figure out a way it's what they are paid to do. There is simply too much $$ at stake to leave any weapon on the table.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Impact! [Re: David Ingram] #275015
08/27/14 02:00 PM
08/27/14 02:00 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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It's interesting that mulithhull sailors... Hobie 16s up to Nacra 17s (top of the sport) have never gotten into match racing. C class is as much about design as it is about racing.

I wonder why?

now the America's Cup is as much about a space race mentality in design as to the style of sailboat racing.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Impact! [Re: Mark Schneider] #275016
08/27/14 02:14 PM
08/27/14 02:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
It's interesting that mulithhull sailors... Hobie 16s up to Nacra 17s (top of the sport) have never gotten into match racing.


maybe tactics of match racing are slow, and multis are fast?

Why do NASCARs rub each other like horny teenagers, and F1 cars touch like old married couples (only in emergencies)?


Jay

Re: Impact! [Re: Jake] #275018
08/27/14 02:16 PM
08/27/14 02:16 PM
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SE MI / NE IN
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I'd guess a larger percentage of current (and past) racing multihull guys get their start from the rec side of the sport rather than the more formal/traditional paths.

I'm one of them. W/Ls are fine, but match racing would be a real challenge.


Jeff R

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Re: Impact! [Re: David Ingram] #275021
08/27/14 02:39 PM
08/27/14 02:39 PM
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Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Originally Posted by dave mosley
Match racing monslugs is all about drawing a foul to win. Match racing cats(AC boats) was more about boat speed and tactics, not that BS rule play crap seen here.


No Dave that is not what monohull racing is all about and I'm sure you know that. Match racing with mulithulls is in its infancy and if multihull match racing continues to mature you can bet your bottom dollar that using the rules as weapon can and will be used as a tactic to win, they will figure out a way it's what they are paid to do. There is simply too much $$ at stake to leave any weapon on the table.


probably right and that is sad to me. i do know that monohull racing is more than trying to pick up a foul, I have been racing a Viper 640 and now a VX one for a few years and it is certainly a very competitve class, and not one where fouling is the objective for a win.
they have assymetricals, so its more like cats but a helleuva lot wetter and bumpier, not faster, just wetter.


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





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